Thoughts on translation
ByAfter translating the Chen Pan-ling form names, I was left puzzled by a few of the quirks I encountered. Here they are:
1. 撇身pie shen — what exactly does “pie” mean here? This is a fairly rare verb.
2. 如封似閉 rufeng sibi — seal and close. This one seems a little odd, too. What is being sealed and what is being closed?
3. 進步 jin bu (step in) and 上步 shangbu (step up) both get translated as “step forward.” Are we perhaps missing a nuance there?
4. 拗步倒攆猴 aobu daonian hou — twist step and repluse (drive out) the monkey and 順步倒攆猴 shunbu daonian hou — same side step and repulse (drive out) the monkey shows something i’ve never seen discussed in IMA before — same side (shunbu) vs. twist step (aobu) power. This is a really important topic in IMA, yet I’ve never seen it mentioned. Curious.
In the CPL taiji form, repulse monkey is done in both shunbu and aobu forms, the only taiji form that I know of that does this. This allows the twist step and same side step versions to be contrasted in terms of power and technique. Where does the power come from in a twist step? How does doing the technique in a same side step change the applications? Lots of things to uncover in a topic like this.
(Please note that 繞步 raobu and 拗步 aobu are different. I translated both as twist step but they are different. Raobu is really twisting while aobu uses a type of cross power. If you fully twist aobu it becomes raobu.)
THIS POST IS FROM THE FORMOSA NEIJIA BLOG AND IF YOU’RE SEEING IT ANYWHERE ELSE, THEN THIS POST HAS BEEN SCRAPED FROM MY SITE. PLEASE REPORT ANY VIOLATIONS OF MY COPYRIGHT TO FORMOSANEIJIA.COM
THANK YOU!
Post Footer automatically generated by Add Post Footer Plugin for wordpress.
29 Comments
April 24th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
jin bu - step up starting with the front leg
shang bu - step up starting with the back leg
just my take from my Bagua translations
April 25th, 2008 at 8:53 am
Joseph,
Did pie shen ever come up in your BGZ translations? There seems to be a fair amount of confusion over pie.
I did a Google search and found a discussion by Louis Swaim and others where they tried to tease out the meaning, but it seemed a bit inconclusive.
April 25th, 2008 at 9:40 am
Not really knowing anything about the form or these particular moves, it’s hard to guess how exactly to translate these terms.
For “ru feng si bi,” this is a sort of idiomatic structure that is seen in classical Chinese, it is basically just poetic redundance. In expressions of this nature, “ru X si Y,” such as “ru hua si yu” (like flowers, like jade) or “ru e ru ke” (starving, thirsting). So, it may not necessarily refer to two separate actions (sealing AND closing).
As for “pie,” the main definition given for it in Kangxi is “fu” 拂, which means to brush past or stroke, does this resonate at all with the movement itself?
April 25th, 2008 at 10:02 am
Is pieshen chui the move shown at the beginning of this video (the previous video ends right at shan tongbei)?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ytB0BJLwoR0
If so then it does seem like it is a “brushing body punch” in that the right fist brushes past the ribs before punching.
Also as for “ao” vs. “shun” it does seem like, as you suggest, “cross step” is a better translation for “aobu,” to avoid confusing “aobu” with “raobu.” Generally “shun” means same side leg and hand, and “ao,” its direct opposite, means opposite side leg and hand. FWIW
April 25th, 2008 at 10:37 am
Josh,
I took one class in wenyanwen and found it fascinating, but a little frustrating in the ways that it was different from baihua. Ironically my teacher told me to stick with it because she said foreigners have a strange advantage with classical Chinese since they are so used to baihua to begin with.
So rufeng sibi did confuse me a bit.
Yes, that is pieshen chui shown at the beginning of the clip. Good eye.
One of the Yang guys suggested that pie had to do with diagonal energy based on that usage. Perhaps it’s diagonal and “brushing” the opponent’s body? It doesn’t brush our own in performance.
I agree with your description of shun and ao. The problem is that the type of energy used in ao is like crossing energy, at least as I’ve been taught to express it.
Whether to express the look of the step or the energy used in the translation is something that I haven’t decided on. I think ao could go either way.
What do you think?
April 25th, 2008 at 10:57 am
Hi Dave,
If I’m not mistaken, in Chinese calligraphy, “pie” 撇 is the name for the diagonal stroke 丿. Since it’s a diagonal strike, maybe that is what the term refers to?
April 25th, 2008 at 11:14 am
As for shun and ao, that’s a difficult one. I’d say it’s translator’s discretion
I’ve always had trouble translating “shun.” It usually simply means “same hand, same foot.” For example, Cheng bagua’s “shun shi zhang” is usually translated as “smooth posture” or “flowing posture.” In fact, it just means that it’s a posture where the same hand and same foot are forward, which is exactly where you end up in this palm (as I learned it, anyway). But, that’s a very specific meaning of “shun” in a martial arts context, and there’s no good corresponding word in English, so it’s difficult to render. The meaning of “shun” that applies to the move here is “along,” (as in “shun shui tui zhou” - push the boat along with the current) as it’s the hand moving along with the same side leg that characterizes the movement. So, in the case of ao, the meaning that applies there is “against,” as it’s the hand and foot moving “against” each other. I’d take the middle ground and give it a literal translation, then elaborate on the functional meaning in a footnote 
April 25th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
I quote from Louis Swaim’s translation of Yang Chengfu’s book The Essence and Applications of Taijiquan:
“If the opponent wants to change hands in order to apply Push (an), I then extend and open my right hand, pulling it toward my thorax to the point where the two palms are facing in and diagonally intersect like aan oblique cross-shaped sealing tape (fengtiao), preventing the opponent’s hands from getting in. It is just like closing the door against a robber. This is why it is called “like sealing”.
(…..)
The image used of “sealing tape”refers to fengtiao, which were strips of red paper pasted across parcels, doors, crime scenes ets, as seals.”
I am quite a Noob and beginner in Taijiquan, so i can’t talk out of mij own experiences; but i thought maybe it helps you a bit.
April 25th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Josh,
The diagonal idea of pie was mentioned on the Yang board too. The move is done diagonally so I suspect that idea might be there. The problem is — what does the pie then have to do with shen after it? Why pieshen? The fist is diagonal, not the body.
As for shun and ao bu, I agree they are hard to render in English. I practice shun as a type of same-side power that is different from the crossing type of ao power.
For example in brush knee (luoxi aobu) my power comes primarily from the left foot and crosses through the body and exits out the right palm.
So shun as “along” and ao as “against” does capture some of the feel, but not all.
Kind of confounding, isn’t it?
BTW it only recently occurred to me that I might know what something means without being able to fully translate it. This is bugging the heck out of me right now.
First-time translator blues.
April 26th, 2008 at 12:27 am
When I studied Chen Style we used the terms closing and sealing in more than one posture. We particularly worked on it in Lazy about tying one’s coat. So when I encountered the sealing and closing posture in Wu Style I just applied the same internal movement there.
This could lead to a big discussion about whether everything is the same or everything is unique, a discussion I would like to avoid by saying: Simplify, if your new addition doesn’t lead to something simpler, move on.
Sealing and closing refers to the sequence Yi-Qi-body. The yi goes out in the horizontal plain (front/back/left/right) the qi follows it like a wave or a ripple in a pond and then dissipates or sinks (sealing) at the edges of this plane, which then curl back under towards the root causing the whole shape of the body to round (closing), rising up a little in the center. Think of a jelly fish spreading out along the top of the water and then sucking in to a round shape.
April 26th, 2008 at 12:45 am
>BTW it only recently occurred to me that I might know what something means without being able to fully translate it. This is bugging the heck out of me right now.
I think I know what “peng” and “lu” mean, ok. But I have no idea how to start translating these characters. They aren’t in modern dictionaries, except “peng” is listed as “bing1″ (arrow quiver). Any help or good sources of explanations?
April 26th, 2008 at 12:47 am
Scholar/Lawyer Yu Piao
In the late 1970’s Lawyer Yu Piao was my roommate in San Francisco. He was already a licensed lawyer in Taiwan. But, he had decided to attend the Univerity of California, Hastings College of the Law to complete his legal education…
One day he approached me and said “I don’t get you Americans. If you are bad you are baaaad, meaning good. But, if you are good you aren’t bad…which is it?” We both laughed heartily.
Etymology is a funny thing. As time passes words evolve. Many times those words become fractured from their original “accepted” meaning. Sometimes, they become the opposite of what they were meant to be.
Likewise, when I first read the first of many “translations” of the “Book of Five Rings”…I didn’t have “context”. I hadn’t trained in the use of deadly weapons. As such, I couldn’t understand the meanings of many of the “words much less the phrases”.
Later, I realized that the few who were “translating” did not have “adept” martial training, much less any kind of weapons experience. Further, the context of present and historical past could only truly be viewed from “present eyes”. As such, I learned to filter everything I read, saw, heard and felt. (I realized that accepted “definitions” are simply made by popular vote and are not necessarily the truth)
Fortunately, I also realized that the “translator/concuit/channel” was nontheless transferring something…
Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
April 26th, 2008 at 10:09 am
The problem of “pieshen” is pretty interesting…
For further comparison:
http://www.56.com/u38/v_MjAyMDk0MDM.html
http://www.56.com/u16/v_MzMyNDUzNDk.html
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_ce00XMTIxMTQ0NzY=.html
http://www.56.com/u65/v_MzE1MjcwMjI.html
and, in Chen taijiquan, the “song” of “pieshen quan”
http://q.sohu.com/forum/4/topic/234326
April 26th, 2008 at 11:51 am
peng as the lid on a quiver.
imagine a cane laundry basket with the lid just caught in the lip at the top,by pressing the two sides the lid springs open.
i am told this is how the chinese quiver worked.
with a press of the back muscles the top that was covering the feathers from the rain, sprung open.
peng jin works like that and so the name.
April 26th, 2008 at 11:59 am
Thanks Wayne, that is an excellent translation! Got any for ji, lu, an?
April 26th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
off topic, joseph, what have you, or do you studied, in other topics youve mentioned music theory, can u read japanese, u sound pretty hardcore.
April 26th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
Thanks a lot Wayne. I wrote a few thoughts about ji here but have no idea on lu. An seems straightforward.
April 30th, 2008 at 4:30 am
[...] Wayne Hansen who comments at the Formosa Neijia site offered this wonderful linguistic explanation of peng [bing1], the most basic and pervasive form of taijiquan power (jin). Peng is the lid on a quiver. Imagine a cane laundry basket with the lid just caught in the lip at the top,by pressing the two sides the lid springs open. I am told this is how the Chinese quiver worked. With a press of the back muscles the top, which was covering the feathers from the rain, sprung open. Peng jin works like that and so the name. [...]
April 30th, 2008 at 9:05 am
scott
for the other 7 look in
tcc for health and self defence by tt liang.
a book for life ,from beginner to master you will always find somthing.
roll back to entice into error [i like to use the word seduce.]
press like a coin off a drum.
push turbulent flow,like the surf.
pull the function of a lever.
split did you not see the whirlpool.
elbow stroke unlimited application.
shoulder explodes like pounding a pestle.
these first appeared in wu gung yi,s gold book and you should read any copy you can get hold of.
April 30th, 2008 at 9:32 am
Wayne,
Perfect…Metaphor and Analogy vs. definitions that change and evolve. This is what I have been thinking about lately. So many people today get stuck in the definitions…they can lead us in both the correct and wrong directions. Definitions have a tendency to be “decided” by vote and popularity, rather than understanding by experience.
This I believe is why past teachers spoke in “story” to explain what word definitions cannot. Like the push hands, tai chi chuan is transmitted by the crossing of hands. Be lucky…
April 30th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
i should have included
ward off like water supporting a moving boat.
April 30th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
Dave I forwarded on queries to Marnix Wells and he’s happy for me to include this as a response…As you may know he learnded CPL form through Wang Shu Jin etc
Best wishes- John
John
Briefly, to answer translation questions:
1. pieshenchui
Same as pishen chui, I think. Chop body punch (back fist striking down).
2. rufengsibi (like sealed as if closed)
Also written liufengsibi (six sealing, four closings). It is an old spear technique and also implies grappling or locking. I think the numbers are explained somewhere…
3. jinbu, shangbu.
I think shangbu (step up) is original version. Meaning is same as jinbu (advance).
4. aobu/shunbu daonianhou
Back foot and front foot strikes. Backward twist monkey is written backward twist forearms
(daoniangong) in Chen style.
Marnix
April 30th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
Thanks for that John. Marnix’ input is always welcome!
April 30th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
> This I believe is why past teachers spoke in “story” to explain what word definitions cannot. Like the push hands, tai chi chuan is transmitted by the crossing of hands.
Good point. I think that’s why they say “the Dao that can be told is not the real Dao”. Or why someone (can’t remember who now) said push hands is a Zen koan. BUT, definitions are interesting in themselves, as a sidebar, even if they have little to do with the actual Dao. As a practical matter, on a blog we can’t cross hands, but we can discuss these things. Incidentally, water supporting a boat is such a clear analogy. A coin off a drum? Don’t get that idiom at all.
April 30th, 2008 at 11:33 pm
Transmittal and Translation
(Quote: As told to the Mayan Time Lord, Chris Peterson)
You have expanded my metaphorical knowledge…”the water hits the sides and returns”.
Yes yes…we strike the drum and it vibrates back into the drummer.
My student, The Congero, Melacio Magdaluyo, is a well known latin jazz saxophonist, pianist and conga drummer in the Bay Area. (He has played with Huey Lewis, Areatha Franklin, Stevie Wonder, etc etc. He learned much of his Conga technique in Cuba and in fact was spiritually made a “congero” by the powers that be.) Few know him as a martial artist. But, certainly he has applied concept and spirituality learned from martial art to his music.
The following is a story of transmission:
One day, while observing Sheila E, Prince’s drummer, he told her you must change your “hard structure” if you want to last while drumming”. He explained, that her strong stance was hurting her as she unknowingly “absorbed” the backblow of the vibrating drums.
Most, do not understand that what you “push out” will unknowlingly strike back to the striker. In simplistic terms, you strike with your fist and the surface of the target damages your knuckles. You must always think of defense…especially when you are attacking.
Transmission is vibratory. We must learn to “tune into” the knowledge, absorb it and then emit it. If can fail at any of these junctions: attunement, absorbtion and the ability to emit. But, more importantly we must be careful of how our “push” pushes back upon us.
May 1st, 2008 at 1:51 am
Joseph, your stories are always fascinating. Have you considered posting some of them in a blog of your own?
May 1st, 2008 at 1:56 am
Neijia,
I’m having fun right here…with Dave and the rest of you guys. But, unabashedly, I hope some of you will read my upcoming novel, “Journeys Within…The Princess Arisen”
May 1st, 2008 at 4:01 am
the coin off the drum head only refers to the short energy version of press.
remember the move in the form is only a way to show one version of the energy or jin.
think of press as any time you have listened and neutralised then press is any short off balancing move you use to set up the final finishing blow.
if you are interested in drumming as conditioning there is only one path taiko drumming.if i was 30 years younger i would start taiko tomorrow.
kali sticks are the same,when doing redonda,sinawali or any two man drill it is the relaxed borrowing of energy that gives you speed and power.
the two man pole forms we practice are the same the take the place of the punching bag/focus pad and condition the arms for hard blocking if required.
zen koan thats mine.
May 1st, 2008 at 4:40 am
Ah, thanks Wayne. Same comment to you - you should consider putting your replies in a blog. Not that I would stop reading my fave blog here - Dave’s posts and the associated comments are too darn interesting - but I’d love to read all your posts in one place (for one thing it’ll take me some time to follow what you’re saying). Sure, I could use some filtering via yahoo pipes or something. Hmm. Btw, carrying over from the Google group, some “force” keeps pulling me to FMA.
Joseph - can’t wait to read the novel. The reading list is ever expanding.