This is one of those myths that IMA guys tell each other so they can seem superior to other styles. Unfortunately, it’s only a myth. No good boxer, MMA fighter, or karate guy is going to punch with his arm only. It’s just crazy. Where do people get these ideas?
Here’s a clip of ESPN boxing knockouts. The BODY is driving the punch in every single one of these knockouts. Isn’t that obvious in this clip? Look at the slo-mo.
Here’s my favorite K-1 fighter — Ernesto Hoost. Watch his core when he punches and kicks. He’s not just using his arm. He’s using a solid core that is connected to the ground (another IMA myth).
There are so many myths that IMA people tell each other that there isn’t time enough in one lifetime to dispel them all.
31 responses so far ↓
1 Christoffer Lernö // Oct 15, 2008 at 5:19 pm
I am not arguing with you. I think it’s reasonable that all top fighters with good punching skills have to use the whole body rather than the arm to power the strike.
I was under the impression that the main difference between these other arts and TCMA was that you learn how to apply the force in any direction with very little overt movement, and at the same time you learn techniques /that only work if you have that skill/.
Whereas most other arts are more straightforward, i.e. you can use all techniques reasonably well, even before you mastered power generation.
Incidentally, it seems like the techniques I mentioned are the first to get corrupted when taught by not-quite-qualified teachers. I think this is part of the reason why CMA often is dismissed as relying on flowery, worthless techniques.
2 meow // Oct 15, 2008 at 5:56 pm
i just see martial arts, and strategic difference, or different expression of the same thing. fighting is fighting folks
3 wayne hansen // Oct 15, 2008 at 6:29 pm
many arts use independant arm action as do many so called internal stylists.
just in the same way many styles with inderpendant arm action learn to use intergrated whole body .
those of you who asked me questions on the last post sorry i didnt get to answer them before the post closed.
4 Brennan Cleveland // Oct 15, 2008 at 10:03 pm
I’ve never heard anyone say that boxers, MMA guys, or karate guys only punch with arm strength and aren’t rooted. It feels like you are just looking for reasons to bash IMA lately, since you switched to Judo.
Im a person who went from years and years of wrestling and boxing to Hung Gar and Xingyi (and a little Tai Chi also). I think the big “myth” of IMA, if there is one, is that IMA are so different from other fighting arts. They aren’t. The big difference is training. The internals start with subtlety and work toward application. The other sports/arts start with application and work toward subtlety. One area where IMA is superior, from my experience, is that there is a program of training laid out for you to grasp these subtleties (relaxation, root, sensitivity) whereas in wrestling or boxing, you are sort of on your own to pick those things up, they generally aren’t explicitly trained.
5 Dave Chesser // Oct 15, 2008 at 10:38 pm
Brennan,
Don’t worry. This will be the last post i do on CIMA. I’m not interested in bashing anything. But I’m sick to death of the BS and the ivory tower arrogance surrounding CIMA.
Wayne,
The discussion board is still open for stuff like that.
6 Dave Chesser // Oct 15, 2008 at 10:51 pm
You know, people tend to forget so very quickly. I wrote 264 posts on taijiquan alone, not counting qigong/meditation.
But the minute I take some judo…
7 elf_man // Oct 15, 2008 at 10:53 pm
I like Brennan’s distinction.
That said, a decent school will teach good body mechanics from the beginning. I used to attend a choy li fut school in San Diego, and even the most basic blocks involved turning the hips and feet. Of course, this was external coordination of the movements, but it was the most basic level and trains the body to generate power from the ground up. The first form we learned was almost all whole-body movements, moving the feet and striking all at once, reminds me a bit of xingyi movement. Later forms and technique become more subtle, with the connection being less obvious, of course.
Then again, Doc Fai Wong brings a lot of tai chi principles to his schools, and actually teaches tai chi as a sort of “sister art”, so this might be somewhat unusual, but they always emphasized whole body power and relaxation. So when I first heard other people discussing tai chi principles, they made a lot of immediate sense.
8 elf_man // Oct 15, 2008 at 10:56 pm
Although I have seen that criticism all over the place, not so much that ema’s use only arm strength but certainly that they are disconnected.
9 Steven // Oct 15, 2008 at 11:02 pm
As a training drill to get arm speed up, I might use independent arm movement. Or, I’d use it prior to connecting it to the body. For example, because of tension, often folks connect their arms to their bodies too much. Relaxing and disconnecting the arm lets it load with a slinging or whip-like effect. Without the sling, no fa-jing!
Notice that Ernesto’s core moves microseconds before his arm.
It’s possible, and it’s phenomenal mechanics, to develop punches with heavy power that, instead of driving forward, drive laterally across the opponent’s body.
This is all, by the way, internal-arts Taijiquan powered. We use structural, single pushing hands to get it.
10 Brennan Cleveland // Oct 15, 2008 at 11:33 pm
Dave,
I completely understand how you feel. The internal stuff is endlessly debated and rarely pressure tested. It is nice to just go to a class and go at it for real, instead of debating semantics and vague, ambiguous Chinese translations. I am fortunate that I found a teacher who is very down to earth and will freely say when he thinks something is bullshit (for example, the Xingyi two person cycle of creation/destruction form in his words “really nicely fits the cosmology but is utterly worthless for combat”). Plus he learned from Wai Lun Choi, who is widely regarded as a good fighter and the real deal.
11 neijia // Oct 16, 2008 at 1:10 am
Dave, I hear what you’re saying. There are books that claim only taijiquan uses whole body. That is a load of crock. Using “dan tian” I think has some other meanings, however. Where do people get these ideas? Seems to be from crappy kungfu.
To answer your last comment on the previous post, yes, I’d rather my kids take up judo, not tkd but in this case convenience and a friend in the class made trying out the tkd the thing to do.
If fighting is fighting, and “styles” are about training, I still found it weird that they use large independent arm movements, especially for blocks, but I see these being used in boxing with smaller movements. They might argue it’s easier to start beginners on a cruder movement (why does karate start with these but no karate fighter would use them in K-1?).
12 Dojo Rat // Oct 16, 2008 at 1:18 am
In general, I’ve seen some people punch while being completely disconnected from their root or base. You see it a lot in Karate point tournaments, and schoolyard fights on youtube.
After years of Karate and Taekwon do, what studying Taiji did for me was to develop a more continous flow. This is as opposed to the start-stop of Karate.
Root is root, whether in western or eastern boxing.
By the way Dave, I hope you return to CIMA after a little Judo and see how your bodywork changed…
13 Human to God // Oct 16, 2008 at 1:54 am
Interesting article.
Just my 2 cents.
I have studied shotokan, shorin ryu, and am now training in kyokushin.
And in all three I had to practiced breathing and movement before we even started doing arm movments.
And my various sensei did teach us punches, blocks, and parries we had to have the whole .. well “body twister” is what they called it.
And if during training they saw us using a punch or something without using the body, we;d have to stretch our arms out to the sides and so 50-100 modified waist twists … where we twisted onto the ball of the foot in the opposite direction of the arms. Hard to explain in words…
Anyway… some dojos I have visited actually have the students punching straight armed with no movement.
The kung fu styles , from seminars I have attended , seem to have the body concept down pat on a more regular basis.
14 angrymammal // Oct 16, 2008 at 3:57 am
Hi Dave,
I’ve been reading your blog for the last couple of months and I feel that it’d be a real shame if you stopped posting about CIMA.
I find your perspective and writing style engaging and informative. As a latecomer to MA’s (I’m approaching 30 and been doing aikido for 15 months) such perspectives as yours are really valuable in helping me consider where I can go with my own martial arts journey.
Regards,
mammal.
15 wayne hansen // Oct 16, 2008 at 5:17 am
it is hard in print to show independent body motion but the prime example is bill wallaces tripple roundhouse where he delivers the first kick and without changing any body mechanics delivers two more without moving any part except the leg from the knee down.
16 Jay Gischer // Oct 16, 2008 at 6:24 am
I’ve done a lot of judo and jujitsu. I have found that everything I learned doing taiji applies. Sometimes it took me a while to figure out how, but I got it. I’m sure there’s much more for me to get, too.
Spending all your time thinking about “what’s wrong with IMA (or judo or karate or whatever)” is a big training mistake, and probably a writing mistake, too. Keep focus on the things you want, not on the things you don’t want.
In that vein, this was a good post, showing how certain body mechanics are universal. We seek universal truths, so that’s good.
17 meow // Oct 16, 2008 at 6:57 am
the independent arm movement thing isnt stylistic, its more skillful martial arts vs unskilled (with neijia’s tkd, he may have been disconnected, but then if he went to another school where they do the same techniques but he uses his whole body and is subtle, is it not still tkd?. The same goes for tai chi, or any art for that matter, thats why i think of it more as a how! they move / use their whole body, or how they express that whole body power, or their strategies (which can be used by different arts etc, but arent usually trained (i mean, tai chi’s sensitivity, but what if a boxer trained sensitivity too?)
18 meow // Oct 16, 2008 at 7:02 am
what im getting at is that there isnt really that much difference between the styles / where the real differences lie
19 Dave Chesser // Oct 16, 2008 at 9:00 am
DR,
I haven’t left CIMA. Principles are principles. Everything else is just a label. I’m exploring the exact same thing I’ve been exploring just through another medium.
Jay,
“Spending all your time thinking about ‘what’s wrong with IMA (or judo or karate or whatever)’ is a big training mistake, and probably a writing mistake, too. Keep focus on the things you want, not on the things you don’t want.”
I have been focusing on nothing but the things I want. That’s the problem a lot of people have — I’m not supposed to want the things I want. They’re “inferior” to what others want.
But comparisons are inevitable. Why would I do another style in the first place? Obviously I’m after something that judo has that…..
Do you see?
20 DavidK // Oct 16, 2008 at 10:03 pm
Amen, Dave. Amen.
21 Jay Gischer // Oct 16, 2008 at 10:46 pm
Dave, this entire post is about a myth in internal martial arts. Which you apparently want to poke holes in publicly. How does this help you become a better martial artist? It seems very reactive to something, and combative.
I’ve cross-trained, you don’t need to explain why you do that, but for me it’s not about a style, per se. It’s about a person. It’s about finding someone who can do things I want to do, and who is willing to teach me in a way I want to learn. Style doesn’t mean much.
I’m sure I could walk into a school that teaches the exact same style of jujitsu (Danzanryu), watch what goes on, and never want to come back. It’s not the style, it’s what you do with it.
22 Dave Chesser // Oct 17, 2008 at 1:25 am
Jay,
I agree to some extent. But styles set the parameters you play in. They aren’t all the same. Taijiquan doesn’t have ground fighting — as today’s post on Josh clearly pointed out. Neither does wing chun, etc. BJJ is great, except it doesn’t have weapons work.
If that inner voice says “my style doesn’t have that, I gotta go get me some of that elsewhere” then a style comparison is being made.
As for being combative, well…I’m fighting tooth and nail for my ideas and the right to be who I am. What can I say?
BTW, this idea of independent arm movement got brought up in a comment under the “forte of taichi” post. You must have missed it. I didn’t just pull it out of thin air, even if it seemed like that. But no big deal.
Thanks for letting me know how you feel about this.
23 B_Wutang // Oct 17, 2008 at 1:10 pm
“One cannot wait for an attack. Preemptive attacking: that’s it!”
<>
I haven’t read all your posts on here. Thanks for the blog. I just looked up the fote of tai chi posts.
I was surprised to see the post on “pre-emptive attack” - mostly because I think your proof-in-the-pudding confidence in your technique is proven by your willingness to wait for an attak. My view on this is I’ll wait for an attack but does the other guy really want to find out what happens to them next?
Anyhow - I encourage your cross-training - Dave - I wouldn’t be doing tai chi, pa-kua, hsin-i, shaoling, and soon praying mantis and chin-na. BTW chin-na and a few punches and kicks on the ground to soft spots work as well as BJJ does - though they may break the rules of UFC.
24 Edward // Oct 18, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Many “external” Chinese martial arts also have principles similar to the “three external harmonies;” I suppose that the unique part (to “internal” styles) is the “three internal harmonies” part. Whether the three internal harmonies are better than or even necessary with the three external harmonies may be debatable, but I think that most people would agree that the it is fairly unique to IMA.
25 meow // Oct 19, 2008 at 7:02 am
b wutang, how do you get the time to train that many arts simultaneously?
the 6 harmonies should be found in all arts (or any movement), whether its been verbalized or not
26 B_Wutang // Oct 19, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Very lucky that I have two teachers who are highly skilled in those styles. My schedule is Tai Chi cass 2 times a week, Pa-kua two times a week, Hsing-i two times a week, and Northern Shaoling kung fu two times a week. The 3 days when I have no classes - I train about 2-4 hours by msyelf, including martial arts and weights or swimming. The days when I have class, I usually have at least 2 or 3 hours of classes per day right now - I usually practice an extra half hour or hour outside of class - before or after class. It’s very challenging, considering I have a professional job - luckily it’s a job that is limited to 40 hours a week.
Next month I start praying mantis - so I’ll be taking 5 different complete systems/styles at the same time- (8 Step for several months, then Tai Chi Mantis for several months, then Plum Flower, then Si Lu Ben Da, Six Harmonies, Seven Star, etc.).
I’ll do Chin-na hopefully in Decmeber - but that’s only a 3 month class - every saturday - for a few hours.
It is very time consuming. Luckily - I’m really only responsible to myself at this point in my life. I’ve put a hold on my other creative pursuits (writing, music) in order to focus on mastering tai chi/hsing-i/pa-kua/northern shaolin - but i think it’s worth it.
27 B_Wutang // Oct 19, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Re - Chin-Na - it actually consists of 3 major sets of chin-na -
but the first set is only for 3 months for a few hours on the weekend.
28 wayne hansen // Oct 20, 2008 at 4:59 am
one thing i am not sure about today is if practicioners realise that each art has a curricilum.
that by doing one form you have not learnt an art,and that each art can contain the same the same steps as each other.
this is our yang style curricilum just to give you an idea.
1 standing exercises [this includes post standing,chi kung and loosening sets]
2 walking exercises [this can have as many as 20 sets but the basics are forward,backward and cloudhands with and without hands]
3 slow form [108,37,58]
4 pushing [start with structural pushing sets to realign the body,fixed step, moving step,combat and freestyle,we have over 100 sets]
5 walking 4 hands [these are stepping back and forward sets with various combinations of hand foot alternations]
6 ta lu [like pushing there are a few different sets combat and freestyle]
7 san shou [these are the two 44 movement sets learnt firstly as solo sets,then as partner sets then as sparing]
8 pole [this has exactly the same steps as empty hand training.standing,pushing san shou etc,as do all the weapons]
9 spear
10 knife
11 sword
12 freehand fighting set
13 noi kung
14 sitting.
this is to be practiced daily if you wish to get the full benifit,so you can see that if you do this for each art it takes quite some time.
each aspect of training changes how you do the previous sets learned and alchemicaly changes your body and mind effecting your spirit.
29 B_Wutang // Oct 21, 2008 at 12:13 am
RE: a curriculum -
Each of the complete systems at my school have their own curriculum - though some of the warm-ups, postures, stretching, and other exercise may overlap - for example - tai chi:
chen and yang traditional
push hands
fighting form
tai chi sword
tai chi knife (and other weapons)
chen tai chi cannon fist
For us - i think it is not practical to practice an entire system each day -
For example - Hsing-i would include:
Five Elements
12 Animals
Five Elements Linking
12 Animals Linking
Fighting Forms
And I haven’t even listed all of the northern shaolin, pa-kua, praying mantis, weapons, chin-na curriculums (and possible special private lessons in baji, piqua, etc.) - but you get the idea.
I am a beginner/intermediate students - for me to study more than 1 complete system - I have to alternate what I focus on for the day.
For example, today is a pa-kua and chen tai chi day for me. I will still practice five elements and the animals that I can for hsing-i during the day, and maybe a northern shaolin set or yang if I’m lucky. Tomorrow, my emphasis is on shaolin, yang, and hsing-i - more so than today. Other styles are not a priority tomorrow. Etc.
My understanding is that it becomes more challenging when one is an intermediate or advanced student - to stay on top of more than 1 complete system - I understand that my 2-4 hour minimum commitment per day will become more like a 3-5 hour minimum in order to pull that off. We’ll see.
30 meow // Oct 22, 2008 at 5:41 am
how do you refine that many moves?
31 B_Wutang // Oct 22, 2008 at 6:09 am
meow // Oct 22, 2008 at 5:41 am
how do you refine that many moves?
It seems you’re asking a rhetorical question–meaning you don’t really expect a good answer. In that spirit - I offer you this to ponder:
I’ve seen guys at my school who’ve been training in multiples styles for years (10+ years, 15 +) and their kung fu is terrible. I’ve also seen others who’ve been training in multiple styles for years (5+ years, 10+, 15+ , 20+) and their kung fu is very good.
Why the variance at the same school between people who seem to have been doing the same things for a similar amount of time (5+ to 20+ years)?
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