There’s a big split in every martial art between those who believe in some picture perfect technique that fell straight out of heaven and those who know that applying your art is more difficult than it looks. As you can tell, I’m definitely in the latter camp. 
If people would even bother getting out and actually testing their stuff against (gasp!) resisting opponents, they’d immediately see that things in the real world don’t work like they do when the “grandmaster” demos on compliant students. It’s chaos out there. Nobody will stand there like in the demos and let you do what you want. Your ability in application is largely a measure of how well you deal with chaos. Can you adapt to changing conditions or not?
These techniques that we practice simply don’t exist in perfect form anywhere. They never have. Founders came up with moves that fit their bodies and experience. You must do the same within the framework of the moves given. You don’t break principles (well, at least when teaching beginners) but everyone’s actual application will differ slightly.
But it happens every time someone applies their art — some ankle biter will come along and say that the guy has his heel up or something.
I ran across this argument in regards to Mike Swain’s DVDs. Swain is likely the best judoka the US has ever produced. He’s proved too many times that he can apply his art to be questioned on this. But since it’s beyond question that he can apply it, ankle biters criticize his technical points against some supposed standard that doesn’t now nor ever did exist. This is how armchair warriors bring down those who can actually do something.
I see an awful lot of this crap going on lately on various message boards, which is why I don’t post much on any of them now.
“Look, his hand is 1mm off. That’s not Hebei xingyiquan!” Puke.
I’m doing Bryan Kest’s Power Yoga DVD lately. He says that there is no perfect asanas in yoga. Paul Grilley of Yin Yoga fame says the same thing and even shows how each person’s bones can be very different, leading to different expressions of the poses.
What a breath of fresh air.
12 responses so far ↓
1 Dan Paden // Jul 26, 2008 at 10:45 am
My own teacher, after he shows us an application, always says, “But nothing will ever actually happen that way.”
2 DavidK // Jul 26, 2008 at 12:00 pm
I remember being castigated by you for asking someone if dealing with a punch was spiritual enough for him, because he holds an extremely haughty attitude towards any sort of fighting. I was told that I just didn’t get it and that I would never get it if I concerned myself with fighting.
Fighting is the ultimate chaos.
3 Brennan Cleveland // Jul 26, 2008 at 12:08 pm
This is an interesting topic that I have thought alot about. In any martial art or combat sport, there are techniques and principles. Techniques should follow from principles. Or, at least, one should be able to point out the principles that you need to adhere to for the technique to work.
Now, for each technique, there is exists some conceptual ideal of perfection in the execution of that technique. You practice the technique with the aim of continuing to approach that ideal. When you take that technique out of the practice room, and into a fully resisting (fighting or competition) environment, one may find that the technique doesnt work or needs to be considerably modified in order to work. This is more a reflection on the persons experience level in that environment than on the efficacy of a technique. The most skilled people in any art or sport actually CAN pull off the techniques in with near perfect form against resisting opponents. Not all the time, but sometimes. It takes years of practice in a fully resisting environment to do this. We’ve all seen this Im sure. Floyd Mayweather’s just picture perfect counter left hook to knock down Ricky Hatton in their fight is a great example. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMBJ5F3j04c&feature=related)
Now another part of this is principle. The principles of movement, timing, structure, etc… in your art. As I mentioned above, highly skilled practitioners can perform techniques at near their ideal expression. A second, and I feel more important, thing they can do is spontaneously “invent” techniques in response to their opponent that follow the principles of their art. This is how it feels when the principles are ingrained in your body and you are able to act without thinking. These spontaneous technical inventions are usually parts of various other techniques brought together in a unique and appropriate way for the situation at hand. That is what we are all working towards.
Brennan
4 Dave Chesser // Jul 26, 2008 at 1:33 pm
DavidK,
We need both the spiritual and physical to be balanced. Fighting is never enough by itself.
There are two extremes that annoy me endlessly: “spiritual” people that will not even try to apply their art and “fighters” who never want to talk about anything more subtle than punching people in the mouth.
I admit I’m frustrated and have been for some time with the limits of what we can and can’t talk about. Sometimes those frustrations will show, as in this post.
But if I say something that annoys you, stick around and I’ll likely eventually say something you’ll like. So thanks for your patience.
I really do find myself squarely in the middle on this stuff. That’s either balanced or vulnerable from all sides, depending on your perspective.
5 scott // Jul 26, 2008 at 9:45 pm
From the perspective of “Chaos,” order is the resolution–so technique is expressed as perfection.
From the perspective of “Perfection,” chaos is the resolution/completion–chaos it is the technique.
But, obviously I have just created a dichotomy–an “on/off switch” if you like. The definition of taiji (that hardly anyone seems to understand) is that we go to the place where there is no “on/off switch.”
Technique… as chaos.
6 Farting Monkey // Jul 27, 2008 at 1:11 am
Luckily, as internal martial artists, our training isn’t focused on learning techniques out of a textbook…
7 Dojo Rat // Jul 27, 2008 at 1:27 am
Flow drills
Flow drills
Flow drills,
Adapt and change. Controlled Chaos.
Now it’s funny to go back and think about Karate one-step sparring, when people get it wrong, they stop action, re-wind to the previous position and try again. What a failure.
Flow, change, adapt.
I totally agree with your quote:
“There are two extremes that annoy me endlessly: “spiritual” people that will not even try to apply their art and “fighters” who never want to talk about anything more subtle than punching people in the mouth.”
Tai Chi Form students, and MMA guys…
8 wayne hansen // Jul 27, 2008 at 3:50 am
if you dont get more spiritual im going to punch you all in the mouth.
we train for perfection so that when we stray from it in combat that we dont stray so far that our tecquniques are useless.
no one would ask a tennis player not to train for perfect form because it is never achieved on the court.
9 Uchi Deshi // Jul 27, 2008 at 4:25 am
Hi - My blog went private. If you would like to access it, send me an email at uchideshi@gmail.com
10 Meow // Jul 27, 2008 at 2:33 pm
why not just train to get better… more? problem solved
11 William // Jul 28, 2008 at 3:10 am
“perfect” techniques only happen after one has drilled them until they are engrain in the muscle memory and practice with a non cooperative partner (I wonder why Dave takes Aikido as a good example, they practice in a very cooperative way) in sparring. In one of Meir Shahar’s books there are great examples about how they used to do it in the “old” days. Here are some quotes from his book:
General Qi Jiquan quoted “without obvious postures or techniques, you will be effective with one move; if you do make the mistake of posturing and posing, you will be ineffective with ten moves”. in the sixteen century Tang Shunzhi wrote “the reason for postures in the martial arts is to facilite transformations…forms contain fixed postures, but in actual practice there are no fixed postures. When applied they become fluid, but still maintain their structural caracteristics.” and sorry no “internal” or enligthment is mentioned here.
12 Meow // Jul 28, 2008 at 9:51 am
hmmm, i agree with no fixed postures, but i believe them to be a necessity, i.e. depending on where your opponent is in relation to yourself, you can minimize your openings / be most efficient, obviously these change as he does, otherwise, where is the strategy?
Leave a Comment