A couple of you have written in asking for advice on seeking some training in JMA. Usually this is done because the CIMA student is seeking more opportunities for application training and/or sparring. Below are my thoughts on this.
1. Seek out BJJ and judo rather than aikido.
Aikido would seem like a natural first choice for a CIMA guy looking to move into some JMA. And it’s a great style. I admire it a lot. But if you’re looking for sparring opportunities, you just won’t get it at the adverage aikido shcool. You WILL get lots of application training, many of which have counterparts in CIMA. First control is a variation of pichuan from xingyiquan, second control is an application of “needle to the bottom of the sea” from Yang style taiji, etc. Many of the moves (but not all) are found in CIMA, so you could get a whole lot of practice on apps in an aikido school. But the lack of sparring (randori) is a big issue. BJJ and judo do lots of sparring and apps training.
2. Start getting in shape
Grappling takes physical energy and you have to be in shape for it. This perfectly compliments the less atheletically challenging CIMAs. You want to be in shape for this stuff for a number of reasons, but foremost is probably because it reduces the chance of injury. Grappling involves more angles and positions that you’ve encountered in the stand-up fighitng of CIMA. You need overall strength and endurance to protect yourself at all those odd angles. See this as the yang side of your training.
3. Pay special attention to chokes, pins, and submissions
These are THE most important technqiues you as a CIMA guy will learn in the JMA grappling arts. Chokes, pins, and submissions are absolutely vital for self-defense purposes and CIMA does not cover them. I have actually used these technqiues in self-defense. I’ve saved a couple of lives with these techniques. You MUST know them but only in BJJ and judo schools will you find sufficient training in them. Get what you don’t already have under your belt.
4. Don’t fear doing something different but be prepared for a backlash
After having done CIMA for a while, it will be difficult to start something so new. I felt it too when I showed up the first time to judo class. You’re a fish out of water in many ways. Relax and go with the flow (that’s what we’re good at, right?). You’ll be picking it up in no time. Just let the JMA be JMA and the CIMA be CIMA for a while, though. Don’t expect everything to be like taiji class. But do expect that your practice of JMA will ruffle feathers. In fact, I recommend that you keep this part of your life secret and compartmentalized. Don’t tell the JMA school you have CIMA experience (why would you?) and certainly don’t tell your CIMA class or buddies you’re doing JMA. They probably won’t understand. You know how it is.
If you go this route, enjoy the training and let me know how it goes.
15 responses so far ↓
1 CReidS // Jul 13, 2008 at 12:20 pm
I can only imagine . . . things got bad enough when I told a classmate I was cross training Wing Chun and Tai Chi a few weeks ago.
2 neijia // Jul 13, 2008 at 11:37 pm
> They probably won’t understand. You know how it is.
We humans are weird this way. It’s a little like the brand loyalty of “my grandpa worked for Ford so I can’t ever buy another brand of car or my family will disown me”.
Even in bjj and judo it can still be weird despite high level athletes cross-training. Some people may still find it disrespectful if you show up to judo in your bjj gi covered with those silly patches (what is this the 70s with jean jackets and patches?). It’s amazing how stupid it all is. In general bjj encourages cross-training though so at least there’s that. I wouldn’t start talking about my qi hugging there, though. Anyway, as another CIMA/JMA guy, I’m enjoying the cross-training posts.
3 Meow // Jul 14, 2008 at 7:43 am
yea the posts are kool, combat oriented
i dunno about pins tho, and personally wouldnt recommend anything that relies on a gi for application
4 Dave Chesser // Jul 14, 2008 at 9:11 am
Pins and rides don’t depend on the gi. Wrestlers do them all the time. I once had to pin a knife-wielding attacker (I took the knife away from him first) for 10 minutes until the police came. It felt like forever and proved to me the utility of pins.
5 neijia // Jul 14, 2008 at 10:07 am
Yikes! That sounds pretty frigging scary, Dave. Must’ve been a good pin, though. Care to tell us the whole story? Meow - the gi is kinda weird. I suppose if you’re ever fighting in parkas, some of your skills would transfer, lol.
6 taijiquestion // Jul 14, 2008 at 2:14 pm
Personally, when it comes to the “real world, no BS self-defense/survive the fight” side of things, I look at military-style methods first and foremost… not a “martial art” per se. (Unless maybe krav maga, natcherly.)
I never did military service myself, but I love to hear the stories and especially to look into their world of hand-to-hand combat. I’m a peace-loving guy and I love the guys (and gals too, these days) who protect our peaceful civilian life. If I can drop a dime on the Chesser request line?
7 Tommy // Jul 15, 2008 at 4:47 am
I love going to other martial arts.. when i tell people i do Cheng Hsin they have never heard of it, and then i spend the whole lesson messing people up without them even realising it. the only problem comes when i try to explain to them why what they think is relaxed really isnt…. lol
8 Dan // Jul 15, 2008 at 8:09 am
I agree with you totally. I am from a shaolin background(have 2nd black) and have been training aiki-jujutsu in Taipei for a year now. I wouldn’t have been able to use much of my ima training had I not started with the uke/nage training style of aikido. As you mentioned in the previous post, this training method really helps teach about flow, blending with an opponent and using their own energy against themselves. Also, if you don’t know what to do when someone shoots you too the ground, you are in a world of hurt. Nearly all of your striking arsenal will be neutralized, and the what are you going to do? All you need to do is watch the ufc fights with a striker that doesn’t have a good ground game to see just how effective their “wicked right cross” is while flat on their back. Usually all they are doing is giving up an arm bar.
) is really doing themselves a disservice. Cma is superior in many ways to other systems but current training methods still leave you with blind spots.
Anyone that believes that their art has it all and has disdain for other systems (even taekwondo
As for gi chokes.. people wear suits, jackets, even heavy shirts. These can be used against an opponent. Why wouldn’t you want to know about them? In a tight situation they might save your life.
Anyway, love the blog. This is a great resource. Thank you.
9 Hermann // Jul 15, 2008 at 8:38 am
Sunday night I watched a National Geographic docu on selfdefense. The tenor was: MA of all kinds are more or less useless; use the soft spots on your enemy, eyes, ears, throat, lower belly (not groin), If you got the right mindset, everybody can do it, no training necessary, whatsoever! Forces of around 15 kg are more than efficient on those spots.
So if it`s not SD, than it must be competition? UFC? K1? Or Pancrase? Professional for the money?
No, it`s for the fun, the good feeling, the invigoration, the Yangsheng aspect.
I don`t need to be technically complete to defende myself, so what the hack? I train ICMA for the beauty of them!
10 Meow // Jul 16, 2008 at 6:15 am
dave, im not saying they dont have their use, just that its fairly limited, and i kno alot of judo / bjj etc techniques can be modified to work without the gi, but its that element of retraining.
taiji, good martial art training should be that, we have all of the history before us where people have fought and recorded their ideas etc to draw on
dan, martial arts train specialty techniques and you fight like you train, a closed suit or jacket isnt the same as a gi, and you would be training techniques with the hope that your opponent is wearing a jacket etc, percentage techniques
herman, you cant always barge in hoping to nail your strike, thats why we have strategy
11 neijia // Jul 16, 2008 at 9:31 am
> you would be training techniques with the hope that your opponent is wearing a jacket etc, percentage techniques
ok definitely a dead horse now but you might be the one wearing a jacket, military garb, whatever (but who really cares). the gi is a weird experience. wearing a rash guard and board shorts doesn’t seem “regular” either, maybe regular for wayne on the gold coast. training in “street clothes” is fun.
12 Dan // Jul 16, 2008 at 4:23 pm
martial arts train specialty techniques and you fight like you train, a closed suit or jacket isnt the same as a gi, and you would be training techniques with the hope that your opponent is wearing a jacket etc, percentage techniques —
I must have been tired- I don’t remember saying you should only train for gi/jacket chokes. I was trying to express the simple fact that you can use a persons clothing against them since most people…wear clothes! The only art that I’ve seen that really addresses that seriously is the judo/bjj people. Why would you purposely neglect one aspect of training just because it’s a low percentage technique? Especially one that might save you in a tight situation.
Enough about that. I guess why I’m even responding is a couple of remarks Meow made (cool name though).
a lot of judo / bjj etc techniques can be modified to work without the gi, but its that element of retraining — it’s not retraining it’s complete training.
taiji, good martial art training should be that, we have all of the history before us where people have fought and recorded their ideas etc to draw on
Judo/jujustsu has no recorded history? The countless ufc/pride/Olympic matches hasn’t provided any relevant data? Yes I know they have rules and that changes the dynamic, but I can’t think of any fight changing, high percentage techniques that have been restricted except the eye jab and the groin kick. Sure there are others, but they are low percentage.
herman, you cant always barge in hoping to nail your strike, thats why we have strategy
I’m not sure you read his post.
I hate to be so abrupt with you meow, but I see you have drank the CMA is the ultimate MA kool-aid. I come from a CMA background myself and hate that I have to take potshots at Taiji and bagua, but these training systems and methods do have gaps. I think Dave’s post about Taiji push hands skills in judo sparring really hits the nail on the head. If you are serious about being a complete fighter you owe it to yourself to explore every angle of training and thought.
Finally, as for our workout clothes. A Gi can provide a study set of clothes that can withstand the rigors of hard training. Really once you’ve worn it for a while it’s not all that different from a track suit. That being said…they are also sweat boxes here in Taiwan. I have found a mix of street/gi to be really comfortable and cool.
13 Meow // Jul 16, 2008 at 6:37 pm
you missunderstood most of what i said..
its retraining because if you train techniques that work without a specific situation i.e. something to pull on thats pretty strong, you can apply them in both situations
with the history thing, i was talking to taijiquestion, the poster, how he doesnt like m.a (meaning all m.a.), so im saying good martial art training (any style) should have those elements he mentioned finding solely in ‘military’ m.a. (which is where they stemmed from anyway)
almost all of my other posts where i bombard threads are saying that all m.a. should contain the same fundamentals, i come from a jujutsu background, but i currently do taiji aswel, the filipino arts look awesome, sure, explore every angle, but dont drag every piece of crap you find into your training method. Im kool for training in a gi, but not relying on it for techniques (and anyway, why not just wear the tracksuit? then you dont look like a poser m.a. fag?)
14 neijia // Jul 16, 2008 at 11:09 pm
I’ve gotten used to the gi so I no longer think it looks weird but I’m not a fan of people emblazoning their gis with a gazillion silly patches. To me that is sort of like people who cover the back of their car with a gazillion bumper stickers. I think rash guards look stupid, too, but I’ve succumbed and bought one as it is useful for its stated purpose. I think wearing traditional Chinese garb - especially those lousy slippers - and striking gis look silly, too. They don’t seem to serve any functional purpose. These cultural quirks are all really weird.
15 wayne hansen // Jul 17, 2008 at 6:57 am
i have yet to see a judoka who does not go for the gi grab as his point of engagement,then circle around retaining that grab looking for an opening.
as for the shortcomings of icma i have yet to see them.
i see plenty of people who dont train them correctly.
i see plenty of people who dont train hard enough.
i see plenty of people who dont have faith and become half arsed hard stylists.
when it comes to the real thing my art has never let me down, however i have fallen short of the art on many occasions,both in training and combat.
jma has a great deal to offer cma but it is not necessarly in teqnique,it is more in the zen atmosphere of the dojo.
the respect of the art and teacher,the ambiance of the training space,the dedication to hard work,the symbolic beauty of the white gi balck belt.
look to the prefound beauty of iado,the continuious repition of one perfect stroke,over and over until you loose yourself within the slash of the sword.
the beautifull stepping and intelligently crafted circles of the classical naginata.
the practicality of traditional jodo.
look to the reason hapkido and aikido both grew out of daito ryu.
one of my students an australian is a japenese potter who lived and exibited in japan for 9 years.
a few years his teacher,a national living treasure and his teacher came to stay in aus. for a couple of weeks,they both attended my tai chi classes.the 90 year old only once for it was beyond his bodies capabilities, but the younger teacher every class.
i taught him the sung ging and he said it revitalised his art,we had many talks through his student and realised there was no seperation in our attitude and art.
the older teacher had retired from applying his art untill my student gave him a full range of drawing pencils h, hb etc.
he sat there for a couple of days just doing single strokes with each pencil over and over again untill they became part of him and he part of them,only then did he start to draw.
this is what jma has for the cma total infusion within your own art.
jutsu not do.
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