So why train for strength at all?
There are many answers.
One that I liked from the recent thread in have strength but don’t use it was that life doesn’t stop while you train IMA. That’s very true. We still need to move furniture. I find I need to pick stuff up off the floor almost everyday. Guess what? No martial arts technique I ever learned helps me do that. Not one. Straight up and down vertical strength, especially starting from the floor, just isn’t trained in any art that I know of. But it is addressed very well in strength training with weights. Or you can do it with bodyweight for reps.
This is THE number one move that gets people hurt, especially in the back. And yet, it’s almost unavoidable. It just pops up all the time. Why would we want to fail and possibly hurt ourselves on common moves where “internal strength” possibly doesn’t work so well?
And that’s the real rub — as touted as it is, internal strength has it’s limits.
“GASP! No! It can’t be! Internal strength, chi, etc. are all the holy grail. Once you have those, the body can just whither away and you become an energy being of pure light.” Snooze.
Sorry folks. It just don’t work that way. Life is awkward. There are plenty of angles and situations that you don’t train and can’t. There are plenty of situations where pure functional strength (PLEASE don’t see my post as a defense of bodybuilding, it’s not) will get you through when internal strength will not.
Other parts of the picture are enhanced by this functional strength training.
As I said before, the body is the foundation for qi and shen. Don’t work it and that paradigm becomes unshaky. You can have tons of qi awareness and die of diabetes because you’re overweight. Don’t let IMA training be an excuse.
The legs are considered the second heart. They are that important. Work them well beyond the static height of most IMA forms and you’ll be ahead of the pack. As soon as I find that someone has a limit to the range of which they can apply force, I exploit it mercilessly. Why wouldn’t you? Add core training and you’ll increase the energy transfer from the legs through the hands.
A last benefit I’m finding is that when you absorb someone’s power in order to send it back to them, relaxed but toned muscle compresses better than weak muscle. When I allow someone to compress me, I’m more efficient in the force transference if I have been working my legs and core. Without that, the expansion part after the compression doesn’t work so well. The “spring back” is enhanced by strength training (but without tensing yourself).
Functional strength training has come a long way since the obsession with body building took over physical fitness. That’s a thing of the distant past. Yet, most discussions of strength in IMA assume that people are talking about body building. We need to get beyond that.
We would do well to incorporate things into our training that would prepare us for events beyond the narrow confines of taiji class, especially when some of those things might even help inside it.
20 responses so far ↓
1 Jay Gischer // Jun 22, 2008 at 12:53 pm
I think of strength as a multiplier of technique, not a gap-filler. My main teacher of tai chi worked our legs pretty ruthlessly, including deep squats. Isn’t that how you pick things up off the floor?
The problem with having a lot of strength is that it can block you from learning anything else. Just as someone who is obsessed with winning won’t try new techniques.
2 neijia // Jun 22, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Yeah. I like qi hugging as much as anyone, but the functional strength stuff seems like common sense as well as a big trend in sports. Tonight I watched part of an mma match and they noted one competitor trains at Athlete’s Performance in AZ, USA, a facility that trains a lot of U.S. pro athletes. Very big on “functional strength”, “pillar” (torso) strength, compound sport-specific movements, anti-body-building, etc.
In William Chen’s Body Mechanics book, he talks about the resistance training he would get moving his luggage around on all the seminars he does around the world. Another of ZMQ’s famous students, Ben Lo, who is one of the pinnacles of “soft” would also demo the pistol squat while holding his foot, as a demo of good functional strength and flexibility. Good enough for me as someone who’s not great at athletics or qigong. I can’t do the pistol squat yet…
3 Brennan Cleveland // Jun 22, 2008 at 6:53 pm
I think one vital gap is missing here… the structure gap. Strength can carry you through circumstances where your body structure is not optimal. The same goes with flexibility. If your main concern in your martial arts training is with being ready and able to apply your skills, then you better be training strength and flexibility, unless you are betting on never being caught out of position (i.e. bad structure) in a confrontation.
Clearly, we are all striving for total reliance on body structure and sensitivity to carry the day, but that is largely a theoretical goal.. an asymptotic line. No one is perfect. Even the best of the best of the combat sports champions need to be strong, flexible and well conditioned, because even they get caught in bad positions sometimes.
4 scott // Jun 23, 2008 at 12:40 am
Wow, while I’ve been away there has been quite a debate! I have one thing to say to all of you:
Why Are You So Weak!
Seriously, you will be tempted to use strength at the jin level of training (and all lower levels too) because it doesn’t work very well.
But Don’t Do It!
Jin (Power) in all it’s forms relies on structure, and when my 155lb structure meets a wild 200lb structure, my timing and technique have to be perfect or I’ll end up using strength, even if that strength is not force against force. That strength will be my undoing if I make the slightest mistake.
To get past the Jin level you must stop using strength. You must stop cultivating it. You must accept your natural weakness, dudes.
By the way I can do that Ben Lo leg drop thingy (you can see me showing off on my youtube video 8 Immortals Sword) it is 100% a balance trick. Strength will screw it up.
What I’m saying here is that you all are correct, training weakness will not work to overpower a bigger stronger opponent. But when you get out of high-school and move on to college you don’t bring your old high-school text books with you–leave them behind!
And Dave, xingyi dragon twist step, taiji snake creeps down, needle in the bottom of the sea, punch the foot, bagua too. They all go down to the ground. If you do a move 100 times for 100 days it should become automatic enough so that you can improvise slight variations, no?
What you, my sagely friends, need to learn is the Dao of Housekeeping!
Oh, yeah, spread the love.
5 Q // Jun 23, 2008 at 12:45 am
I don’t understand what you mean by IMA does not train vertical strength. Doesn’t xinyi emphasize vertical power to the point where they have a statement saying they wish there’s a handle on the ground so they can pull it towards the sky?
6 neijia // Jun 23, 2008 at 1:57 am
I am a beginner at groundwork, but with much more limited space, two things become clear.
1. it’s easier and necessary to use structure or else you’ll gas quickly, especially against stronger, bigger training partners.
2. some moves such as bridging repeatedly when a 200 lb training partner is trying to keep that weight bearing down on you require some strength endurance.
3. with more strength endurance, you can stay relaxed better and longer under pressure, especially in bad positions. I want to asymptotically approach that theoretical ideal line Brennan mentions but I want to have this relaxation etc. in bad positions with the most limited space and misalignment as well. Basically proficient in all ranges.
4. in standup using whole body structure is more difficult. the temptation to use strength or mobilizers instead of stabilizers in some of the yiquan folks’ language is greater.
My Roomba is pretty good at the Dao of Housekeeping.
7 neijia // Jun 23, 2008 at 1:58 am
oops that is 4 or more things, I guess.
8 kenneth fish // Jun 23, 2008 at 6:06 am
If we look at th martial artists of the pre 1911 period, we see that many of them were farmers. In China this meant incredibly strenuous physical manual labor on a daily basis. Any of you ever spend time on a farm? Even with machinery, its arduous work. I spent my summers on a farm until I was 14 - and I also lived, for a time, when we were poor, in a country house without running water or indoor plumbing. Water was carried from a pump well, wood was chopped and split by hand (we had a cast iron potbelly stove which also served to heat the house). On the farm I have to lift bales, use a hoe, thin the rows by hand (low squatting position, moving down the rows for hours). This all builds muscle and physical strength, not to mention endurance.
Furthermore transportation in old China was mostly by foot. Try carrying your belongings for miles on end, day after day.
Regardless of style of training, the martial artists of old started off way ahead of the average person of today in terms of physical strength and endurance. In addition, most systems, including Taiji, included some form of resistance exercise (long spear anyone? How about halebard? Anyone ever try to heft a real Qing or Ming dynasty Chinese broadsword?) Really, the idea that one can achieve a good level of skill in any martial art without physical strength is a bit silly, given the context in which the arts were formed.
9 wayne hansen // Jun 23, 2008 at 6:16 am
when training tang shou tao we would finnish each session doing dragon step up and down the hall,our vertical lifting strength was pretty good.
in tai chi it tells you to drop all strength to the bubbling spring point,this is so that you drop all awkward strength.
after acheiving this a new refined strength slowly appears,when this new strength is understood it matters little how much weight you lift because you wont break the principles.
to train with sifu chow he made me come and work with him at the banana markets lifting 2000 twenty kilo boxes of banans a day,i would never give up that expierence for anything.
10 josh // Jun 23, 2008 at 7:19 am
Very true, it seems to be an unfortunate byproduct of the over-emphasis on categories such as “internal” and “external” that this is overlooked today. One of my teachers used to always repeat the old dictum, 內練一口氣，外練筋骨皮 - “internally, train the qi; externally, train the muscles, bones, and skin.” Unfortunately many of the traditional exercises as mentioned by Dr. Fish have been eliminated altogether or replaced by generic weightlifting.
11 Meow // Jun 23, 2008 at 8:06 am
scott, you use structure & strength to transmit force, otherwise, you have nothing (i agree with having technique, and sure, if you use leverage or attack weak points, alot of strength isnt necessary, but in real fighting, speed, power etc are all based on strength, how can you sieze the moment if youre slow (in mind and! body)
kenneth, i was raised on an organic orchard & grandad owned a farm too, imo tho, farm work isnt very difficult / if one wants to improve beyond that level of resistance then heavier / more difficult execises will help.
12 Meow // Jun 23, 2008 at 8:35 am
hey kenneth, i hear youre the man @ xing yi, who are some particularly good practitioners?
13 BL // Jun 23, 2008 at 1:50 pm
The Assembly of the Cats
Once there was a sword master called Shoken, who lived in a house infested with a large rat. This rat was truly ferocious, and no matter how hard Shoken chased it with his bokuto he could not kill it.
Fortunately, one of Shoken’s neighbours was a cat breeder who specialised in training his cats to kill rats. Shoken asked if he might borrow a cat to catch the rat.
The cat trainer gave Shoken a viscous ginger alley cat, a real street fighter with sharp claws. But when the cat came to face the rat, the rat stood it’s ground and the cat was afraid. Shoken returned the cat to the cat master.
“Must be some rat,” said the breeder, and gave Shoken a lean black and white cat. “This cat has had years of training, and is highly skilled.” The second cat fought with the rat, but the rat was able to beat it easily.
Shoken went back to the cat breeder, and retuned with a jet black cat. The black cat had a very strong presence, projecting a quiet confidence. “This cat has mastered flawless technique, and has developed his mind through meditation. His zanshin is truly powerful. This cat will get the rat,” the master had said. But this cat also was defeated.
When Shoken returned to the cat master, the master said. “Very well, this time I will give you the master of the cats. This cat was old and grey, and did not look so impressive. Shoken took the cat home and brought it to face the rat.
The rat moved to attack the old cat, but the old cat sat quietly unconcerned. Suddenly the rat felt a slight tinge of fear. The rat hesitated, and suddenly the old cat reached out a claw and killed the rat with a single strike.
When Shoken brought the cat back to the breeder he asked him how it was that the old cat could kill the rat while the younger ones had such a hard time. “Come with me,” said the breeder, “I’m sure the cats will discuss this, and since cats know a great deal about martial arts I’m sure you will find their conversation interesting.” They listened in to the cats’ discussion.
The ginger cat stood up and said, “I am very tough.”
“Then why couldn’t you beat the rat? Because toughness is itself not enough. There will always be a tougher rat somewhere.” Said the old grey cat.
The black and white cat spoke. “I have had years of training and impeccable technique, why could I not beat the rat?” “Because, although your waza is brilliant, and although you have had many years in the dojo, this is not enough in a real fight.
“But I have perfected my body through training and my mind through meditation,” said the black cat, “I have flawless technique, and also have achieved enlightenment. Why did the rat defeat me?”
“Because, Kuroi-san, although your skill is indeed great, and you have both spiritual and physical power you are not without desire. When you faced the rat you had an object in your mind, you did not have mushin.
The rat sensed this, and his intuition was better than yours. Because you did not have mushin you were unable to harmonise your strength, your technique and you consciousness. I was able to use all these three elements naturally and unconsciously to defeat the rat. This is why I was successful.
“But I know of another cat, in a village not far from here. His fur is snow white with age, and he’s not very strong looking. He doesn’t eat meat, but lives on vegetables and rice gruel, although he is known to take a little sake occasionally.
He hasn’t caught a rat in years because the rats are all terrified of him! As soon as he walks into a house all the rats leave at once. Even in his sleep he chases away rats! We must all learn to be like him, beyond violence, beyond technique, beyond even the desire for skill.”
(Note that this is a variant on Neko no Myojutsu (The mysterious skill of the cat) written by Issai Chozan in 1727.
The original story focuses more on the mental and spiritual attributes of the ideal warrior. It has been translated into English By Karl Friday and can be found in Keiko Shokon (Dianne Skoss (ed.) Koryu Books, New Jersey 2002)
14 Tabby Cat // Jun 23, 2008 at 10:24 pm
> as touted as it is, internal strength has it’s limits
To me the obvious limitation is that IMA is for use against living things.
Yang Luchan was said to have been asked once: Is there any enemy against whom your great art would not prevail? He answered, yes there are three such: a man made of stone, a man made of wood, a man made of bronze.
Also in the Yang lore is the teaching that your technique can be refined to the point that doing your will on an enemy is “as easy as leading an ox with a string through its nose. But if the ox is made of stone, that will not suffice.”
15 kenneth fish // Jun 24, 2008 at 12:24 am
Meow:
Send me a PM re your question.
Also - as regards farm work - it depends on how you farm. Working a backhoe is not terribly strenuous. Using a manual hoe, on dry hard soil, is. Cleaning a chicken coop with a pitchfork and shovel is not only strenuous, it stinks. Chopping wood (with a sledge and a metal wedge) builds strong bodies twelve ways. Digging fenceposts… but you get the picture.
When I lived in Geneva New York, we had a small orchard, and were surrounded by grape plantations/wineries. By comparison, it seemed like the sort of farming one could do into old age.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
KJF
16 tom // Jun 24, 2008 at 3:16 am
kenneth fish // Jun 23, 2008 at 6:06 am
“If we look at the martial artists of the pre 1911 period, we see that many of them were farmers. In China this meant incredibly strenuous physical manual labor on a daily basis. Any of you ever spend time on a farm? Even with machinery, its arduous work. I spent my summers on a farm until I was 14 - and I also lived, for a time, when we were poor, in a country house without running water or indoor plumbing. Water was carried from a pump well, wood was chopped and split by hand (we had a cast iron potbelly stove which also served to heat the house). On the farm I have to lift bales, use a hoe, thin the rows by hand (low squatting position, moving down the rows for hours). This all builds muscle and physical strength, not to mention endurance.
Furthermore transportation in old China was mostly by foot. Try carrying your belongings for miles on end, day after day.”
Ken, I knew you were older than me . . . but I didn’t realize you were THAT old.
;- )
17 kenneth fish // Jun 24, 2008 at 3:45 am
“Ken, I knew you were older than me . . . but I didn’t realize you were THAT old.”
Why do people keep saying that to me these days? I have an urge to hit them with my walker…….
Anyway, thanks for the ego boost Tom. Actually, the country cabin was in Chenango Valley New York, in the very early 1960’s, and places like that were not uncommon in rural New York state. The farm was a smallholding - almost too large to work without machinery, but nobody had the money to buy any, so we did most of the labor by ourselves, and the owner of the property rented out a tractor and such to tenants on the various properties for the big stuff (like plowing the fields). So I think anyone who has lived that kind of a life can gain a bit of insight into preindustrial life.
Wasn’t implying that I remembered pre-1911 China. Smart ass.
BTW, anyone from a rural background will remember the best uses for a Sears catalog…..
Meow: email me at kjfish “at” yahoo.com
18 scott // Jun 24, 2008 at 6:06 am
Kenneth, while it is tempting to accept that the first known practitioners of Taijiquan were in fact its source, I rather think the essential conceptual-physicality got spat through from an earlier era. It just happened to land in hicks-ville, from where it dribbled its way down to us.
If you read the Huainanzi (1st century BCE text) you’ll see that there were a lot of people hanging around the court of Prince Liu An separating their jing from their qi. Did they think of themselves as martial artists? who knows? But they did live in a world where they were expected to handle weapons and armor, that’s for sure.
19 C.J.W. // Jul 8, 2008 at 6:28 am
I agree with Dave.
Doing IMA is not an excuse to be lazy, and that even IMA masters who supposedly have high-level “qi” power are not immune to the health risks brought on by elements related to poor fitness such as obesity.
Take Wang Shu-Jin and Zhang Zhun-Feng for examples, they were both obese and suffered from severe diabetes later in life.
20 wayne hansen // Jul 9, 2008 at 6:21 am
plenty of super fit people die too.
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