One of the best pieces of advice that I could give is to have strength, but don’t use it. Lift your kettlebells, hold downward dog for five minutes, do some weights if that strikes you as a good idea. But when it comes to doing forms or applications, don’t use that strength at all. Get in the habit of doing without it.
The classics of all the IMA styles admonish people to act without using physical strength. They stress relying on technique and sensitivity to get the job done. If you aren’t relying on those things, then you aren’t developing what the IMAs are best at. Why do an art and not want what it can give you?
Instead, treat strength like capital in the bank. You don’t want to spend your capital. You want to spend the interest. The interest here is the other person’s force (use it against him) and the techniques that you develop. Make those techniques as little about strength as possible and you’ll save that strength for when you really need it.
Conservation is the key.
I think of the jing, qi, shen paradigm in terms of a pyramid. The jing level is the body, with all of its hormones, bone marrow, muscle, etc. The physical body needs exercise — often beyond what taiji, xingyi, bagua, or aikido can provide. Those martial systems weren’t designed to be exercise systems and expecting them to function as such is problematic. For example, you aren’t going to lose much weight doing them.
Working the jing/body level supports the structure above — the qi and shen. If the jing level falters, the top becomes unstable. With a strong base built up over time, the upper levels can be developed. Without that strong, broad base, building upper levels will rarely work. Many advanced IMA systems forget this, especially when training complete beginners.
But once the base is built, maintain and tweak it but don’t use it. For example, build your cardio power but rely on relaxation to carry you through. If you don’t, you will never truly practice an internal art. You’ll miss what they can give you. But keep the physical to make up for what the IMA’s lack. This way, you get to have your cake and eat it too.
Hope you find this useful.
28 responses so far ↓
1 Tabby Cat // Jun 17, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Yes, the great master Dong Ying Jie wrote as below:
“Some people said Taiji practitioners should not do weight lifting and should not use force. This is not true. Before we learn Taijiquan, our whole bodies are stiff and our force is not flexible. Once we have learned Taijiquan, we are very relaxed, our qi circulates and we can get rid of the stiffness but keep our force. Our rigid force has become resilient force. The rigid force usually comes from the shoulders and is not controlled by the waist and manisfested through the fingers. In business term, our rigid force is our capital, and relaxation is the method we use (know-how) to run a business. If we know how to run a business, with a small capital we can still do big business. If we do not not how, then even with a big capital, we cannot run any business. Therefore, after you have learned to do Taijiquan properly, there is nothing you cannot do, be it weight-lifting, wrestling, or running. Do not let the misception to worry you.”
(Dong Ying-jie: Taijiquan Shi Yi.)
2 Dave Chesser // Jun 17, 2008 at 10:26 pm
Wow! Excellent quote. I had no idea he said anything like that. Thanks!
3 Jay Gischer // Jun 18, 2008 at 12:18 am
My first teacher emphasized a lot of legwork and leg strengthening. Just to be able to do the postures correctly, sinking into the qua, requires that most of us office working types get quite a bit stronger.
4 Tom // Jun 18, 2008 at 12:46 am
Yes, but Dave, note that Dong wrote, “AFTER you have learned to do Taijiquan properly, there is nothing you cannot do, be it weight-lifting, wrestling, or running.” [caps added]. Can you–or most practitioners–do taijiquan “properly” in the sense that Dong meant? And what does it mean to do taijiquan “properly”?
These aren’t just rhetorical questions. In my experience, the way most people do strength training, whether lifting external weights or using bodyweight methods, increases the rigidity of their backs and especially their shoulders. If they train in this manner while also learning taijiquan, they run the very real and common risk of confusing their shenfa. Common weight-lifting methods, for example, use the body in a very different way than taijiquan. Taijiquan is a subtle enough skill set to pursue without adding conflicting shenfa and reflexes.
For those coming to taijiquan having first built a strong but rigid body, there is a lot of “unlearning” to do in becoming supple and fangsong, particularly in the kua and torso.
I’ll ask that second question again: what does it mean to do taijiquan “properly”? Let’s add some spice to the mix: did Dong Yingjie do taijiquan properly? Watch his movements. Watch the tuishou clips of his lineage descendants. Feel some experienced practitioners in that line. The common theme of inquiry I’m after is the level of suppleness and fangsong.
Don’t forget that Dong received his foundation training in the Wu/Hao methods of Li Xiangyuan (Baoyui), and even in the middle of going on tour with Yang Chengfu, Dong continued training with Li:
“When they [Dong and Yang] were in Suzhou, his teacher, master Li came to visit. Dong Ying Jie was very happy to see Master Li; he kneeled down to show respect. Master Li said, ‘ I know you are keen on learning and had traveled all over with Master Yang. I have come to see you. I know you still need some improvement; besides, there are many great martial artists in the south, so I am afraid you might be in an unfavorable situation and bring disgrace to Master Yang. I want to teach you some exercises to improve your internal energy.’ Master Li stayed in Suzhou for over a year, helping Ying Jie develop strong internal power and perfect his applications. He then returned north.”
http://www.alexdongtaiji.com/tungyingjie.html
What would Li–a disciple of Hao Weizhen–have taught Dong during that year to develop “strong internal power,” that Dong had not gotten from Yang? Was it weightlifting? Bodyweight exercises? Neigong work?
5 Tabby Cat // Jun 18, 2008 at 5:06 am
The main point is, it’s good to be strong because real life never takes a holiday - you never know when you might need to help move a piano or carry luggage through Ohare or something.
6 wayne hansen // Jun 18, 2008 at 5:33 am
you must also consider what dong meant by weight lifting.
i am sure he did not mean the type taught by steroid ridden meatheads and gym junkies that we see today.
one of the best forms of weight training is the use of a heavy quando or the time honored methods of chinese wrestling.
most people teaching weight training today do it for appearance ie. body builders which tend to leave their bodies damaged and disbalanced.
when you have mastered the physical side of tai chi you wll know what auxillary exercises are benifical or not.
first master form then look to add the extras.
7 William // Jun 18, 2008 at 5:47 am
I rememebr my BJJ teacher who was about 6,4′ and over 300lbs, used to tell us that due to his size he could submit us easily. However he forced himself to avoid using his natural strengh when rolling with us and instead he concentrated on fine tuning his technique.
8 Meow // Jun 18, 2008 at 6:09 am
the gaining of strength is for a purpose, all of your techniques where you issue force rely on it (with relaxation in the appropriate musculature / correct coordination, you are still limited by the amount of force your muscles can produce. Also, the effort required to produce the same amount of force is far less than a weaker person would require.
wayne, heavy quando training is just like compound lifts, not all weight training is the same, an olympic lifter who lifts 3x his bodyweight yet is relatively small compared to a bodybuilder may do the same lifts, but the difference is huge in terms of results, i also disagree with the injuries you say are caused by weight training i.e. physiotherapy uses resistance training all the time. Watch someone do a snatch and tell me hes not flexible with force.
9 Dave Chesser // Jun 18, 2008 at 8:45 am
Neijia made the comment below, but in the wrong thread. I’m moving it here:
I agree with meow. there is a functional strength training craze and probably permanent change happening in all sports. the kettlebell craze is only one example. my son plays basketball at a facility that also trains elite middle school players. they have all sorts of specialized functional strength training equipment for doing sport specific movements. they aren’t doing useless non-specific isolated stuff. the general shen fa in elite sports should trickle down to lower levels and even low popularity martial arts. the risk and need for unlearning should be getting low.
what if people started with taijiquan training instead of treating it as “advanced”? i am no natural athlete, but i’ve found if i successfully do something very basic from ima, such as six external harmonies, or relaxing before and during movement, in bjj, judo or any non-ma sport, people perceive it as athleticism. they don’t know it’s very conscious effort to overcome lack of athleticism.
10 wayne hansen // Jun 18, 2008 at 11:22 am
show me someone doing a snatch without supports on his joints.
i was not pointing to olympic lifters because most people will not train with them,they will train with body builders or gym staff trained by body builders.
as a trainer of rugby league players i have had much to do with good weight training and know its benifits.
as for kettle bells this is just a repackaging of the llama/llama locks used with the 6 strength kune,i have been teaching these for over 25 years.
the flexability used in the snatch is over a very limited range and i think you will find most of those involved end up with serious injury over time,i respect their ability but not the overall result.
11 Meow // Jun 18, 2008 at 2:03 pm
- so tai chi uses this super flexibility?, i dont think any athlete uses extreme ROM for anything other than showing off
- tommy kono is still going strong despite his age and..
http://weightliftingexchange.com/UserFiles/Image/Jim%20Schmitz%20Snatch%20245%201967.jpg
12 tom // Jun 18, 2008 at 9:33 pm
Flexibility is not the goal with taijiquan training–fangsong is. There is a profound difference.
13 neijia // Jun 18, 2008 at 10:01 pm
Some postures like kicks should improve flexibility anyway. Having extra ROM has sort of the same benefit Dave is talking about.
I’m not sure how easy it is to generalize about “most people” now. The world has gotten a lot smarter in the last 25 years. In addition to seeing the middle school training (not exactly pro sports), I have a brother who worked as a personal trainer in the last 10 years. The training he’s told me about is all functional stuff. Sure, back to the future and kungfu did that all, but this knowledge is no longer limited to the fringe in ma circles. It seems to be the rage with the crazes in core training, pilates, yoga, and so on. Even weekend warrior golfers can get good training. I see a lot of ma teachers still do stupid stuff like static stretches instead of dynamic stretches and sport-specific warm-ups before class (I follow along but cringe inside) but I see a lot of coaches in more popular sports doing the opposite. How long has that Kurz book been out now? I suspect most people can easily get good training now if they do a little reading and know what to look for. Mainstream trainers, not just ma nuts, keep talking about the uselessness of bodybuilding type workouts designed mainly for aesthetic hypertrophy, not a sport or type of movement.
14 wayne hansen // Jun 19, 2008 at 4:17 am
what most people refer to as rom i call brom.
beyond rom,the rom in ima is limited to functional rom.
for an example never locking out the joints or hyper extending.
the flexability in ima is flexability of application.
this is one of the main differences between the internal and the external systems,in the internal we dont push things to extreems.
core training is just the latest catch word,pilates is designed for dancers where apperance trumps use.yoga has been mainly hyjacked by the gym crowd and stripped of its spiritual base for celebrity and financial purposes.
for every tommy kono there are numerous damaged bodies out there.
dont get me wrong i see many things of value in mainstream sports and activities outside ima,but overall most sports are designed to use the practicioner while they are young and fit and replace them with next years crop when they wareout.
how many times do we see injuries allowed to heal in their own time before the sportsman is thrown back into the pressure of full on competion.
ima is designed for lifetime achievement not short time gain.
15 Meow // Jun 19, 2008 at 7:20 am
youre bashing all training instead of stupid training, theres a difference.
16 Meow // Jun 19, 2008 at 7:21 am
have you ever heard of the masters class?
17 Chad // Jun 19, 2008 at 7:55 am
Sterngth is useless without technique. Technique is ineffecient without strength.
18 rakushun // Jun 19, 2008 at 12:37 pm
By definition, efficient technique does not require strength, just the amount of energy necessary to stand or pick up a cup of coffee.
Most of the discussion appears to revolve around the physical. The fangsong of taijiquan that I am pursing focuses on the mind, what is it state and where is it residing.
Pursing specialized skills means sacrificing other skills, in my case furniture moving ability.
19 Meow // Jun 19, 2008 at 1:03 pm
or the ability to smash your opponent more easily (if your weaker, more effort for same force = more fatigue)
im just being a dick here, but if strength is useless without technique, you should be able to bash all the mma fighters
20 wayne hansen // Jun 19, 2008 at 1:10 pm
two words
tiger
woods
21 Joseph T. Oliva Arriola // Jun 19, 2008 at 9:51 pm
The women in this tape are not “big and strong”. The weapons do all the work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4a9eHS3enk
22 YMAA.com // Jun 20, 2008 at 8:05 pm
Great post, great points. Remember, a complete Taijiquan curriculum (and most other Chinese arts) also utilizes Taiji Ball (ie. weight) training for strength, and Taiji Qigong for softness and increased Qi circulation. At its essence, development of pliable strength is the core principle of taijiquan.
23 wayne hansen // Jun 21, 2008 at 5:46 am
i may be wrong but i do not know of ball training in the yang,wu or sun styles.
are they not complete.
24 Chad // Jun 21, 2008 at 6:25 am
If you think the MMA fighters have no technique, you are beyond hope.
25 Tommy // Jun 21, 2008 at 8:13 pm
its very easy in my experience to think “i should be relaxed” and think that doing no exercise is the best way to be relaxed. But being weak, malnourished etc doesnt mean you are relaxed. And being strong, fit, healthy doesnt mean you will be tense.
What I find so interesting is that Taiji and weight training dont seem to work together. Many times I have gone to the gym and done 15 minutes of Taiji before my workout and felt great after the two, but I always find that the workout mindset eventually takes over and before I know it I’m just doing the workout 4 times a week.
26 Morgan Buchanan // Jun 22, 2008 at 4:19 am
“One of the best pieces of advice that I could give is to have strength, but don’t use it.”
dave, what is the point of cultivating muscular strength if you aren’t going to use it?
from my experience the expression would be more like “have a strong root/central equilibrium but develop neutralization so that the other guy can’t place force on it”.
that takes care of the neutralize/absorb yin half of the art.
“Make those techniques as little about strength as possible and you’ll save that strength for when you really need it.”
when do you really need it? how do you return force to the opponent without muscular strength? i believe there is an answer to this question - namely “jin” which is a way of using the soft tissue and tendon structure to absorb and return without transmitting a physical force sensation that comes with “li”. the difference is that when you get pushed with “li” you feel the force, with tai chi “jin” you don’t. this then negates the need to train specifically for muscular strength all together.
that covers the return/yang half of the art.
taijiquan treatise by wangzongyue :
“these techniques of the martial arts have many schools. though their postures are different, overall they do not go beyond the strong bullying the weak…those with strength beating on those without stregth…these are all from pre-heavenly ability, and are not connected to the effort of study or from achievement…examine these words: “4 ounces deflects 1000 pounds”. clearly it is not force that conquers an opponent.”
professor’s saying is “don’t let more than 4 ounce build up on you and don’t use more than 4 ounces when returning/attacking”
cheers
morgan
27 Meow // Jun 22, 2008 at 7:49 am
chad i was joking
28 Physical strength in IMA // Jun 22, 2008 at 11:01 am
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