So when I posted my thoughts on traditional and mixed arts yesterday, I forgot to define my terms. That was a big mistake because somehow the confusion arose that I meant training buffet style by taking this or that from each different system. Needless to say, that isn’t what I meant.
I wrote that post after reading this incredible debate between Nathan Scott, a mod on E-budo, and Mike Sigman, who I’m sure needs no introduction.
N. Scott is a traditionalist all the way. He trains one and only one art and contends that there are many high-level secrets that absolutely will not be discussed outside of a small group of insiders within his system.
M. Sigman has trained many arts over the years. He contends that many of the qualities addressed in the thread are baseline skillsets that should be the fundamental training and can be openly discussed (well, sort of).
N. Scott right away identified M. Sigman as a “mixed martial artist” and that threw me for a loop. I think of MMA in terms of a combo of striking from boxing or muay thai and grappling from BJJ or wrestling. That’s usually what it means in today’s UFC-obsessed world. But N. Scott meant it as applying to someone that does more than one art as M. Sigman does.
Needless to say, nothing about the arts these men practice got discussed, with the sole exception of one post. Instead, we get this amazing back and forth debate about traditional vs. “mixed” arts as defined by N. Scott.
M. Sigman keeps insisting that jin skills are the fundamental practice. They should be at the basis of everything you do, so vid clips of your movement should provide evidence of those skills. N. Scott insists that moves in clips are down intentionally to conceal things from outsiders. He says that only a few in the system will get the things M. Sigman is talking about because they aren’t show even to people with many years in that system.
At this point, I couldn’t help but recall something Tim Cartmell wrote about Jigoro Kano taking his first batch of black belts around, challenging all the schools of traditional jiu-jitsu, like what N. Scott practices. If I remember Tim’s article correctly, not one single bout was won by the traditionalists — they all were dominated by the judo guys.
N. Scott even mentions judo in the thread by saying his art isn’t like judo, where a rank beginner can see and have access to the highest level skills almost immediately through randori and watching Olympic-level athletes, I presume. The “secret” aspect was brought up again. The “good stuff” was being purposely withheld in the traditional style and N. Scott was non-apologetic about it.
In the end, I thought N. Scott did a great job defending his position with eloquence. The guy can write and I mean really write.
But his position in opposition to treating jin skills as baseline skillsets didn’t sit well with me in the least. This stuff is hard enough to pick up. If people are going to hold it back, then why bother training with them?
The so-called mixed position seemed much stronger to me. Sometimes traditional is way too conservative for its own good.
57 responses so far ↓
1 renli // May 18, 2008 at 10:00 pm
You guys know me, right? I’ve been on RMA for years. What fewer know is that I’ve been on the Neijia list as well, and am now on Qijin. Fewer still may know I’ve argued hard as hell with Mike Sigman as often as I could for many years, so I know all about his position. Well, for better or worse (about last year sometime) I finally came to grips with what Mike has been saying. The problem with me, is that I was far too much like N. Scott. N.S. is right about a few things - about learning an art from the inside (it’s possible - I did it and I’m happy) but he’s also wrong because 99% of people can’t do this for whatever reason. I know this, which is why Mike scares me sometimes because he makes me doubt what I know.. by going on about how difficult it is to learn ( and again, for many it is ).
If there’s anything left for me to disagree with Mike about, it’s a) I am a tai-chi specialist and most of what he says is general to all IMA (and even some external arts), including arts like Aikido, Judo, etc etc - and although it also applies to my art, I don’t feel it’s a fair treatment for a specialist to pick up. I am like N.Scott in that I learned it from the inside. I have all the books, I know all the terms - which make sense in my art - and I can’t easily discuss it with people from other arts because they don’t know what I am talking about.
But, because it needs to be said. Mike Sigman is right - about pretty much everything. For the most part, the people who disagree with him - myself included, mainly don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s a hard truth to swallow and pride makes many people erupt in anger instead of what they should do, which is calmly try to understand what he’s saying and why he is right.
One thing I should thank Mike for, is giving me the inspiration to study what I do to understand it on a deep level. You see, Mike Sigman really did succeed in what he set out to do - discover a baseline skill set for internal arts, ki/kokyu arts etc. And he IS right - too many times, people don’t get it. I have met very very few people who truly understand this on a deep level. Take taiji people for instance - even the serious people - just look at all the problems we have with push hands and you instantly see that there’s a pretty big hole in what we’re learning. This is it, this is the hole.
I hope, for N.Scott’s sake, that he is right about the “small group” of people who do pass on ki/kokyu skills in arts like Aikido or Daito-ryu.
But it’s by no means a secret to everyone. To some, such as myself, Mike Sigman, and many others (notably including many masters, to use taiji as an example because it’s my art again, CXW, CZL, Ma Hong and several others say the same thing, that is..) it’s part of a basic skill set. Difficult, non-intuitive, (or as Ma Hong prefers to describe it, not difficult but just boring to train haha) - but by no means secret. Sure, secret in some arts - but not others. Not even a little. It’s just that when told, far too many students, especially american students, miss the point completely.
And, I think, it’s time for people to follow Mike Sigman’s example and drop all this oath of secrecy stuff. Not about everything mind you - but keeping a basic skillset secret just because it’s non-intuitive, when there’s so much more beyond that… and when everyone else already knows it.. Hmm, all other things being equal, it seems like a waste of time…
IMO, if you got the goods, there’s no reason to flaunt them, but there’s no reason to shy away from discussion, exposition, learning, with experts in your field…… especially since that’s what we’re doing here in the first place.
2 BL // May 18, 2008 at 10:07 pm
(But his position in opposition to treating jin skills as baseline skillsets didn’t sit well with me in the least. )
They are. It dosnt mean that they are easy to get or do. It just means that for some including myself these skill sets are considered fist level.
(This stuff is hard enough to pick up. If people are going to hold it back, then why bother training with them?)
Because not everyone wants them or will do what is required to get to the higher levels, why would anyone waste there time training someone who is not committed to the art in question.
3 Joseph T. Oliva Arriola // May 18, 2008 at 11:26 pm
The Truth
I am greedy, selfish and these are my treasures. History repeats itself. Nothing is the different and yet everything is different.
Many years ago I approached, my teacher, the legendary Ben Largusa. I told him my concerns and fears, “Sometimes, I don’t want to teach the kali. I want to keep it for myself.”
He replied by telling me a story about one of his students, Dan Inosanto. (As a bit of background, in his book “Filipino Martial Arts” Inosanto talks about Largusa and his teacher Floro Villabrille as being the best of the best.
IMO, historically, it can be proven that before “Villibrille” no one has ever heard of the term “kali”. Now, the “teaching” is out of the bag. Inosanto, made the name Kali famous. Now, everybody is a master, grandmaster and supreme grandmaster etc etc of Kali ). Do they truly know the Kali?
I mention this bit of history because it speaks of “secrets” that have become public knowledge…or seemingly so.
Largusa continued his story by stating “I told Danny to teach immediately what I had taught him. But, he didn’t. Instead he kept it for himself. He made a mistake by not teaching it. He lost it…my grasping it tightly in his hands.”
Largusa went on to tell me “You must teach it fully to “learn more”. If you let your greed and selfishness prevent you from teaching it, you will close the door “spiritually”. However, you must always keep an ace in the hole.”
For many years, I took his advice and taught everything…no secrets. This policy paid off in “miracles”. In teaching me the theories and concepts Manoy Ben freed me. He gave me the tools to search, uncover and “to be and to become.” I was no longer shackled by the illusion of structure and the illusion of formlessless. Everyday, I learned something new and beyond the original teachings.
However, as the years went by I started to see the other side about “keeping an ace in the hole”. I started to see that many of my students did not have “capacity, capability and responsibility.
You do not teach the “knife” to a child who might use the “knowledge” to kill someone. In other words, they must be ready.
Yet, the funny part, is that in “my movements” everything is right in front of you. If “you” have the capability, the capacity, and the responsiblity you will see the secrets “with or without me.
Now, as to guys who “bully” others to take lessons from them…who can’t fight…who aren’t successful in all aspects of their lives…don’t get me started. If you do, most certainly you will bring out MY selfishness, greed and vindictiveness I feel for those “intermediates” who think they are advanced.
Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
4 Jay Gischer // May 19, 2008 at 12:10 am
As somebody who has trained in jujitsu, studied IMA, and read Mike Sigman on the neijia list, I’ll point out a few things.
First, with regard to judo. Yes, they are very good at dealing with competitive situations. No, I don’t want to fight any of them in a challenge. What I learn in jujitsu is quite often an “illegal hold” in judo. I’ve heard many such stories, from senior people in my school who have, in fact, won judo competitions. There’s also the “unbreakable hold” which gets broken. That being said, I’m sure Kano and his students could kick my ass.
The character of the martial art we study in my school is very self-defense oriented. It is not competition. In order to have competition, there must be rules, and boundaries. There’s a ring, and techniques that are illegal. There’s a start and a finish.
For the purposes of my training I reject rules, boundaries, starting points. Fighting is a form of negotiation, to paraphrase Clausewitz. Martial arts for me is about conflict management.
Years ago, Mike was writing, on the neijia list, something along the lines that if you didn’t have peng, your tai chi was useless. I didn’t understand what he was talking about at the time, and he didn’t help me to understand it. Maybe this wasn’t his intent, but I felt he was simply finding a way to belittle me and my training. That being said, I now think he was right. I see the point, I get what he was after.
My jujitsu school has secret lists, and depth. The thing is, the things on those secret lists, which I’ve seen the first of, take skills which you’ve already learned and takes them to a new level of difficulty by placing them in a more difficult and dangerous context. That is, it’s a more advanced set of drills to do. And maybe one or two new concepts are introduced.
The list is secret because it’s dangerous for someone without the prior training to practice it. Someone might well get hurt. It’s also secret because the list is used to introduce certain attitudes, which are indelibly associated with the physical drills. If the lists were practiced at lower levels, that attitude would have to be diluted, and that would destroy the point of doing the drills. That being said, the secret list employs skills and concepts that were taught in the very first list.
Finally, my school of jujitsu really encourages people to go outside the house and learn things that give them more insight to what we are doing. We have senior professors who study escrima, chi gong, tai chi, i chuan, aikido, karate, wing chun, etc.
So I kind of find the mixed-pure dichotomy silly.
5 wayne hansen // May 19, 2008 at 5:45 am
my teacher has a saying’ if i give away one secret today i will have two to give away tomorrow’
most of my advancements have come by trying several paths to make a student understand something simple.
a few years back i was teaching a tai chi teacher.
she said to me ,it is great after 30 years to be finally learning all these advanced things,
my reply was ,this is what you should have learnt in your first lesson ,these are the basics,
the old saying when the student is ready the teacher will appear,this is not always a living teacher it is more often an understanding of something you have practiced for years.
the reason a good teacher is required first up is that your first teacher can take away your ability to see what is right there in front of you.
chau chi quam would say the first half hour of instruction is the most important of all.
another friend of mine fong lee was talking to me about what he has been doing since i left sydney 20 years ago.
we got around to tai chi and i asked him if he had seen any good teachers.he said you are still the yardmark.and then quoted a chinese saying.
you can only walk in the door for the first time once.
6 Joseph T. Oliva Arriola // May 19, 2008 at 11:00 am
Dave, OMG,
I just read through the “great debate”. My eyes hurt.
As some of you may know…I have recently had several “word fests” with Mike Sigman. He immediately “called me out” on his turf. Since I knew nothing about him, I could only make an opinion of him based on his “words”. I realized that his “arguements” were based on his deep seated assertion that he and his “friends” are the only ones to know the “truth”.
He hides behind his elusive hero Dan Austin. (If anyone has a link to Austin’s video’s I’d love to see them.) He challenges and bullys and then hides behind “I am just a beginner. I don’t even have a school”. He plays it both ways…and yet, he gives no proof of his skill…only criticism of others.
I am so glad you posted the “great debate”. It is but a confirmation of Mike Sigman’s illusions of grandeur. Every “critical comment” he has made is but a mirror of his failures. Thank you for confirming my analysis.
Please note, I too, have asked him to show me his skills in person or by video. The little I saw on “some website” showed me a guy who has “talk” but no clue. Unfortuanely, I see the same in many of these japanese stylists who think they are doing “internal”.
From what I’ve seen there is no body connection. They claim that they have body connectedness but a “picture is worth a thousand words”. The very “sword” and “straight line philosophy” is the blockage which will prevent them from truly finding “it”. When they give up their “beliefs” and “their stances” they might have a chance.
Thank you again Dave for posting the “great debate”. If you know N. Scott, please personally please send him my condolences. I’m giddy with confirmation!
7 taijiquestion // May 19, 2008 at 12:29 pm
OK, Dave, this has sparked plenty of good discussion, but now I’m really confused. Hope this doesn’t come across as a “troll” thing, ’cause that’s no my intent laddie. But are we
trying to determine the next step for your martial training; or what course Formosa Neijia blog should set; or just the best paradigm for martial arts training ’round the world?
Sorry, that sounds pretty flip. They’re all good questions and we can each answer for ourselves, or keep on looking. But I was thinking about all this tonight and I remembered it wasn’t that long ago that you shared with your readers some major progress in your qi work. You sounded pretty excited, and who wouldn’t be? This is kind of personal stuff to put in print, but you had the guts to do it. So tonight I thought to myself, if it was me, I hope my qi would start to direct my practice at this point, some things would no longer command my interest, other things would loom as new training imperatives.
Could be this is just the theorizing of a naive beginner, AKA yours truly. But if it’s of any validity… is your qi talking to you, as Erle Montaigue once put it?
8 meow // May 19, 2008 at 7:54 pm
i think they should have a fight, and whoever wins obviously knows more about martial arts..
9 Joseph T. Oliva Arriola // May 19, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Meow,
I’m ready to fight!
But, you got to promise me that if I die you’ll take care of my children, my mortgage and make sure my audi goes in for regular check ups.
Or, I could teach you to fight and you could kill him. I can teach you the 36 strategies to lure him to his death. I could also teach you to use the knife, spear, 3 sectional, butterfly swords or any other weapon.
And when you kill or maim him, at the very least I will represent you in the assault, battery and wrongful death civil action. Of course, if you don’t have stocks, real estate or other investments, you won’t have to worry.
The judgment only lasts ten years and as such your credit scores will only be affected for that length of time. And bankruptcy is always an option for a young man. (Statistics indicate that the highest incidence of bankruptcy is now coming from the 20 something sector.)
Oh and when you are convicted of 2nd degree murder, I promise to visit you in prison.
Hmmmm…I think most people like watching. I on the other hand like doing. I just do it when people aren’t looking.
10 neijia // May 19, 2008 at 9:49 pm
taiji q - qi is our “life force”, not the Yi Jing (I Ching). why would it tell us what to do? I also like “hugging my qi”. I don’t see why that answers a personal trad. vs. mixed question or “the fundamental problem of the martial arts” imho. personally i find it’s a small part of it. at the very least (skeptic’s pov), it helps us stay healthy enough to even find our answer.
my read on dave’s post was he was thinking out loud about his personal choices. everyone responded with his or her personal answers.
11 neijia // May 19, 2008 at 10:08 pm
I personally agree with dave. cartmell (shenwu.com) is a great example. he has skills from his integration of san soo, xyq, tjq, bgz, and bjj. he went deep into each trad. art as well. inosanto is another. i don’t see how every 1st generation baguazhang student is not a great example, either.
12 neijia // May 19, 2008 at 10:11 pm
i think there is an assumption underlying the mixed view that an art= a training method with certain unique features and biases that not everyone with a trad pov agrees with, perhaps because his personal art encompasses much more than that and no one wants to see aspects of his art as “useless” (reject what is useless). people who want to honor trad but see mixed as practical perhaps finesse this last point by not seeing those aspects as useless but as finer, low % points. just my 2 cents.
13 Joseph T. Oliva Arriola // May 19, 2008 at 10:39 pm
Neija
I hesitate to comment on most people unless they are exceptionally good.
Cartnell, is not tai chi or anything internal. He may have practiced the form but, never learned its uses. He is a mixed martial artist who is more bbj than anything else. Don’t be fooled by the exterior.
I’m in a bit of a foul mood.
14 neijia // May 20, 2008 at 12:59 am
He must’ve known uses to win those Taiwan fights. Whether or not anyone would agree they were internal … no one ever agrees on what’s internal. That’s almost a running joke. Ok, no more semi-seriousness. Where is Busta to tell us our left-brained thoughts are meaningless (which they are)?
Cheer up! Please video yours or meow’s fight for us to learn from. We’ll be rooting for you guys. I’d be happy to take care of your audi. meow - prison seemed to work for guo yunshen’s art. are you that dedicated?
15 Joseph T. Oliva Arriola // May 20, 2008 at 1:21 am
Neijia
Those weren’t fights. Ah we have a difference in what we define as “a fight”. You could put any MMA guy into those sporting events.
Try looking at my knife videos again and you will have a better understanding of what I mean by “a fight”.
16 taijiquestion // May 20, 2008 at 2:00 am
Hi Neijia, maybe you’re right. It was just a shot in the dark — Dave’s past writing has helped me as I try to get somewhere with my own qi work. Guess when I’ve got something going there, I can find out if it tells me what I should do next. Maybe I’ll have to use my Yi after all.
17 neijia // May 20, 2008 at 4:46 am
Joseph, you guys are all too tough for me.
taijiQ, sorry, answered too quickly. I think you’re right. My qi says: do more qigong, less MA. I’m ignoring or rebelling against this “listen to your body” advice. There is a wonderful post here (substitute “taiji” for “yoga”, “qi” for “prana”, and “posture” for “pose”) on this great yoga blog. Please tell me if your practice approaches this kind of experience…
18 neijia // May 20, 2008 at 4:55 am
Grr, link got trashed. Click “neijia” or use: http://inlimineimport.wordpress.com/2008/04/21/off-the-mat-finding-prana
19 Joseph T. Oliva Arriola // May 20, 2008 at 5:28 am
Neijia,
I’m still in a bad mood. Just remember, you now have 20 million people doing martial art. You have tournaments everywhere calling themselves “World Championships”.
Worst yet, you have lots of “bad marital artists” in these “World Champtionships” competing amonst themselves for trophies and titles that have little or no utility except in the environment of these “false tournaments”.
Do I have a bunch of old trophies sitting around in a box? Sure do. Are they worth anything. Hell no. My old black belts and certificates are there too. I told you…still in a bad mood.
20 meow // May 20, 2008 at 5:58 am
oi joseph, where are these videos of yourself doing knife stuff?
im in a good mood
you wouldnt believe how screwed up the hospitality industry is (u should listen to soilwork, their blasting beats will cheer anyone up)
21 taijiquestion // May 20, 2008 at 7:09 am
Neijia, I glanced at the article, looks like we have an interesting side duscussion going here. I’ll read the thing when I have time and try to respond. Thanks
22 Joseph T. Oliva Arriola // May 20, 2008 at 7:31 am
Meow,
Thanks for asking…
http://groups.google.com/group/formosa-neijia-discussion/browse_thread/thread/ae50f00429747f55
23 Buddy // May 20, 2008 at 7:33 am
Joseph,
Sorry bud, but you’re talking out of your ass. Tim studied with my teacher for many years and knows more about “internal” than you can hope to. But I hope your mood improves.
Buddy
24 Joseph T. Oliva Arriola // May 20, 2008 at 7:48 am
Buddy,
Your teacher’s teacher teacher whispered in your ear.
25 neijia // May 20, 2008 at 11:36 am
joseph, don’t know what to say. i like cartmell. have been easily tossed by him. still, at my level, i admit it’s hard to detect the ima subtlety vs. say, my judo senseis’ sublime throws save for entry diffs i think have wider applicability from ima. sport is limited but i haven’t achieved those skills i admire given its limits so i persist. my role model for this path is cheng ting hua. bgz on grappling base.
i have a friend who studied kali in manila and now teaches his ima influenced fma. i take it on faith and believe what he and you tell me about weapons. my sport instructors do not delve here. one day i will understand your videos and posts. i believe your art is also ima and fma. ?
i don’t see a contradiction here. my talent and time is limited but i seek all of the above.
26 neijia // May 20, 2008 at 11:42 am
p.s. hope your mood is better. i always look forward to your lessons and stories. thank you.
27 neijia // May 20, 2008 at 12:03 pm
pps tuhan arriola, nevermind my silly fma ima question. i looked you up to find my answer. forgive me i don’t follow the kali world. thank you.
28 taijiquestion // May 20, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Hi Neijia, I enjoyed the yoga article, and I liked your comment to it, and I can see why you brought it up. I’m 51 now and feel I’ve punished my body enough, so I’m trying to become a good listener. I hope the qi will whisper to me. Even if it’s really the yi. Hard to separate the river from the sea. My life force just tells me to be alive. That’s why I don’t think that it’s the qi. I think that qi is both more, and less, than my life force. But martial arts is practical — or it ain’t martial arts — I think we can all agree about that!
29 Joseph T. Oliva Arriola // May 20, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Neijia,
After 45 years doing this stuff…I only call myself, this or that depending on the open or closed “box” of the person I am discussing life with. I no longer like to be limited by this style or that. But, I pay homage to each method. As such another story…
My Teacher Telling it Like is Was
Many years ago, my teacher, Kali Master, Ben Largusa was invited to speak to a group of black belts. It was a panel organized by the kenpo master, Ed Parker.
There were three other panel members who were of significant note, but are not remembered. The most well known martial artist speaking on the panel was Bruce Lee.
Ben, being wiley thought to himself, I’ll wait and speak last. He knew that the last speaker usually has the greatest impact vs. the other speakers that come before. Bruce Lee had the same idea.
Bruce beat Ben to the punch! Bruce had motioned with his hand, “you go next”. Ben replied “no no…the honor is yours”.
Ben acceded reluctantly, but spoke vigorously and intelligently to the black belts about the theories and concepts of his Kali marital art.
Then it was Bruce’s turn. He spoke for no more than 10 minutes. He then turned to the audience and said, “I’m going to stop speaking now. None of you here will understand anything more I have to say…except for Kali master, Ben Largusa.
Bruce had “given his honest assessment” and as a result had insulted everyone present except for my teacher, Ben Largusa.
Tuhan Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
30 meow // May 20, 2008 at 6:01 pm
uck.
31 Buddy // May 20, 2008 at 9:52 pm
Joseph,
Which one would that be?
32 Mike Sigman // May 20, 2008 at 10:47 pm
JTO Arriola wrote: “As some of you may know…I have recently had several “word fests” with Mike Sigman. He immediately “called me out” on his turf. Since I knew nothing about him, I could only make an opinion of him based on his “words”. I realized that his “arguements” were based on his deep seated assertion that he and his “friends” are the only ones to know the “truth”.
He hides behind his elusive hero Dan Austin.”
Joseph the two debacle posts you starred in are still available for viewing on AikiWeb… anyone here can read the things you wrote and make up their mind for themselves.
I’m always happy to address the functional issues and questions of fact, but the discussions about personality never go anywhere fruitful.
Jay and Renli …. I’ve always tried to argue the facts and be able to demonstrate them. Give me the benefit of the doubt that I was trying to point out something I thought was valuable for you.
Best.
Mike Sigman
33 neijia // May 21, 2008 at 12:23 am
Ah, Tuhan Arriola - amazingly wonderful story as always. While Bruce may have come across as rude, I love how palpable the honesty of the moment seems, even now.
taijiQ, I think we’re on the same wavelength. I’m approaching (only) 40. Whatever we call qi, I know qigong (the taiji forms contain qigong and more) makes me feel best. It’s like runner’s high with no joint issues or huffing and puffing. I can “turn it on” somewhat. I want to get to where that yoga blogger is. If I have to scale back training under resistance, so be it, but I’ll do so slowly. I foresee doing the light push hands like in those videos featuring the 80 year olds. Health is most important. Perhaps that’s what “qi” tells me. Maybe Dave will have a post about it. Will check in at your blog as well. Best.
34 meow // May 21, 2008 at 4:21 am
oi mike sigman, have a fight with nick, you know martial arts is combat pure and simple, he might be more open minded about other arts having some validity if hes smashed by them
35 neijia // May 21, 2008 at 7:04 am
Tuhan Arriola,
I can now see why you’d be in a bad mood. For what it’s worth, I just wasted several minutes of my life looking at that aikiweb thread for really no good reason. As someone who’s familiar with your comments here but who’s never looked at that forum, I saw you posting your normal polite questions and interesting stories. For some reason, two people started questioning and misinterpreting your comments and intent. It happens. Probably a mistake. I think Busta was well meaning but some of us perceived a know-it-all attitude, rightly or wrongly. So it goes. Busta might tell us how meaningless it all is (because it is!). I enjoy these debates but usually I’m waiting for a good story from you or wayne or someone else. Hope the sympathetic comment from a “familiar stranger” helps your mood. Good training and teaching.
36 Buddy // May 21, 2008 at 7:41 am
Based on the vids I’ve seen elsewhere. I’ve yet to see anything “internal” in Joe’s movement. I find the alleged politeness to just be passive/aggressiveness.
That said, Mike, you DO hunt down your game with a tiring tenacity.
Buddy
37 neijia // May 21, 2008 at 7:55 am
good tangent - how much of ‘internal’ is visible? of course no one agrees on what internal is anyway. if it’s just whole body, i’d say we could judge golf swings for level of ‘internal’. no doubt tiger woods is the greatest ima master to date.
38 Joseph T. Oliva Arriola // May 21, 2008 at 8:10 am
Neijia,
You have already demonstrated your “eye”. You have already upped your game. And now you are applying it in combat.
There are no secrets. Its just at every level of mastery, a teacher comes along to help open your eyes. You my friend are “seeing” quite nicely.
Now, go pick up that stick and walk the circle. This time, put a chair in the center of that circle.
39 Rob // May 21, 2008 at 9:15 am
Buddy:
As much as Joe’s “holier than thou art” attitude is annoying (probably comes from being a lawyer), I’d have to disagree with “no internal in Joe’s movement.”
He’s displayed some connection here and there, and a friend of mine that met him pretty much confirmed what I thought in terms of his upper body connection.
Mike’s even commented that Joe’s displayed a little ability in using the middle.
Personally what ticks myself off is his constant self absorbed comments that tend to portray his skills as greater than what they are.
Neijia:
I think internal skills are visible, and extremely obvious to those that can “do” them (even if only at a basic level), and it’s painfully obvious that Joe’s connections are segmented here and there. (Not that that’s a bad thing, its just the way it is.)
Whether or not he can or can’t fight is a separate issue, of course.
40 Joseph T. Oliva Arriola // May 21, 2008 at 9:56 am
Rob,
You followed me! Wow! Just like Mike.
Why don’t you tell everybody who you are. You are the “japanese” stylist experimenting with IMA. You are Mike Sigman’s hero. I do find it interesting that you call me “holier than though”. When I listen to the bullying by the recognized experts on the Aiki board “Rob, Dan, and Mike”, (The Gang of Three), I am saddened. My mood changes from one of good to bad.
I’m curious though, who is this “someone” who met me? Who is this someone who reported on my skills. Is it Chris Parkinson? He too, is on the Aiki boards. Interestingly, he came all the way from Ohio to take a lesson. If it is him, he will be in town next week to take additional lessons. (But, then you and Mike, Dan and the rest of the so called japanese stylist IMA have discredited him too…hmmmm?)
I am glad though that you acknowledge something in my technique. Though, at your level “how can you see” what you have never felt. Most people can’t tell from videos. The subtlety of the technique and the speed of vibration are to fast for the eye (its a bit like the magician).
Perhaps, you can explain it to Buddy. Yet, it is not the “internal” technique you see. It is the fa jing. You see only the tube of the technique. You do not see the internal energy that goes inside the tube of the body.
You can’t “see” it. How could you if you have never experienced it. Talk to me in another 30 years. You are still a young man with little experience. Or you can come to learn from a true expert. This will accelerate your learning.
Mike however, stills sees nothing. But then he is your follower.
Rob, you though are just beginning to open your eyes. Hmmm…I sound like Bruce Lee…who insulted everybody except for my teacher.
(Dave…I apologize in advance. I should have listened to you along time ago when you advised me how to push the “ignore” button. However, I must be “pretty good” if the Aiki experts need to gang up on one guy. I recognize though, that I’m just a man…subject to my “delight” in playing the “multiple attack” .
Meoh,
This lesson was for you my friend. You don’t need “fists” to win in combat.
41 neijia // May 21, 2008 at 11:11 am
Rob - gotcha. connections, yes. qi or yi or even jin, not so sure. no one has posted an “internal” video that is a non-demo that everyone agrees is “internal”.
Q: if there had been video, what would sawai kenichi’s “test” with wang xiangzhai have looked like?
a. they cross hands (did they start like that?)
b. .001 seconds later, sawai is thrown down, inexplicably, perhaps in pain. what would we see in the video that we could learn? my guess is that i would see nothing i could immediately learn.
42 neijia // May 21, 2008 at 11:14 am
first post was auto-blocked (dave, please don’t approve, sorry). second attempt. a little comic relief for y’all.
great knife work, albeit not internal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqxo1SKB0z8
companion vid shows if you can do that, you can do improvised weapons:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gkq7HLBe178
finally, some funny “fma”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMnk7lh9M3o
43 Joseph T. Oliva Arriola // May 21, 2008 at 1:28 pm
A gift: push hands knife: /Volumes/08May/080517_john01.mp4
44 Rob // May 21, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Neijia:
I’ve felt a number of guys with the goods, both from Japanese training and Chinese. Some of them are becoming well known, including Sam Chin(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk1v4RXsH8U).
And I think, jin skills, once you’ve felt them, are recognizable in people. Qi/connections etc are a little bit harder to see but it’s still obvious if a) you can do them to a certain degree yourself and b) you’ve directly felt a number of people with the goods.
Btw, this month’s issue in Hiden magazine is on Sagawa Yukiyoshi’s training methods. I dunno if you can read Japanese, but there’s some interesting comments in there regarding parts of the body he was training, why he trained how he did etc etc.
He did Shikko differently than we did in the Aunkai, and its pretty obvious that he was focused on “down power” in those exercises.
Joe:
Yatta yatta yatta.
Maybe that yarn you spin about internal skills not being completely visible works on rote beginners, but I suspect you’d hardly get any positive response from those that’ve felt anyone with decent skills, say from the Chen villagers, Sam Chin, Ushiro Kenji, etc etc, much less anyone that’s received proper instruction.
Again, I know someone that’s met you, myself, and Mike in person. So I’m pretty confident on my read on your skill level…sorry to say.
At the level you’ve been babbling I’d expect you’d have the skill level of say…Wang Pei Shang maybe?
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf0DNMElas8)
But even with someone that good, its painfully obvious the guy has the goods.
Anyways Neijia knows who I am, what I do so no need for any back handed introductions
45 Rob // May 21, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Er, scratch the “Qi” out of that post. I think I know what you’re referring to when you mention “Qi” and it would be difficult to see visibly. ^^;
46 meow // May 21, 2008 at 5:58 pm
fists are more fun than words
47 meow // May 21, 2008 at 6:32 pm
while no means perfect, i think this guy is kool (its a demo tho) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhUiSi9v99k
(not the form stuff, but the push hands)
48 Joseph T. Oliva Arriola // May 21, 2008 at 10:05 pm
Ladies, Meeting With a Remarkable Master
On a train from London to Paris, I met a woman from Canada. SHE was traveling with her 22 year old daughter. They had been in europe for several months showing her paintings and celebrating her daughter’s graduation from nursing school.
As we all getting on the train, I first noticed her as she smiled at my young daughters. I nodded to her in recognition. She was in her early sixties, blond haired and a bit overweight. I could see from her unbalanced gait that she suffered from health problems. I would later discover that her “decisions” in life had caused many of the wounds she was now suffering.
But, from the “twinkle” in her eye and the smile she radiated, I knew there was something special about this woman. She was a “true master”.
As soon as we were situated in are seats, my wife pulled from her satchel schoolwork for the kids. Though, on vacation, our “homeschooled kids” had made continued learning a habit in their lives. The woman, watched intently as my kids did their math problems.
She then blurted out, “Your children are unusally focused”.
I replied, “thank you”.
“I’m a teacher and I can tell you, your children are quite bright”, she continued.
“Oh really”, I said with surprize. “I’m very interested in “educational techniques”, I continued.
Few people can discern from body language the extentions of the mind through the body. I was certain that this woman was quite special. As such, I was looking forward to hearing her “opinions”. Any person, place and situation is an opportunity to uncover truth. I was ready to receive my lesson.
“Well, do you mind if I switch seats and join you”, she asked.
“Please…join me”, I replied.
“Great…then I will share with you my years of research and education”, she muttered under her breath. I smiled to myself thinking this woman is quite confident…quite confident. In conversation, I would learn that she was not simply a “teacher” she was a phd in classic languages (i.e. greek and latin)
In the next three hours we had “scoped” each other out, sparred a bit and then settled down into a mutual respect. We knew that like-kind always attracts like-vibration even on a train to Paris. We had recognized in each other “the intangible”.
As time unfolded, she told me about her wild life. She had been the penultimate woman of the 1960’s, an unfettered, sexually free woman, traveled and entrepreneurial…a risk taker.
“I almost killed a man”, she said casually. I had to defend myself. He is in prison now, in a wheelchair and with a broken spine.
I listened softly as she told her story. I watched her eyes turn from sparkle to one of unemotional deepness. She was now masked. No emotion glowed from her face as she continued her story.
“I was getting into my car when he attacked me. I wore my hair long then. Fortunately more me I was wearing a a sleek clingy dress. It saved my life. You see, when he grabbed me from behind he pulled at my dress and it stretched.” I nodded my head as I pictured the scene.
“I was carrying a metal bar attached to my keychain, ( I later realized that it was a kubotan) she continued. I again nodded.
“What did you do next”, I prodded.
“Instinctually, I swung around and bashed him in the temple. He went down like a rock. I then jumped with all my might on his back with my knee”, she stated firmly.
“What were you trying to do? What were you feeling?” I stated with anticipation.,
“I pulled back his head and I was trying to rip out his throat with my “metal bar”. I was going to Kill him”, she said coldly. “I was going to kill him”.
She claimed that the only thing that stopped her was the fact that the metal bar was not sharp enough to cut his throat. He, though was a prison parolee and went back to prison. Worse, her knee to his back forever paralyzed him from the waist down.
At first, prosecutors considered her “self defense” claims in light of his permenant injuries. But, she was of course never prosecuted. She had no regrets about “breaking his spine”. She had no regrets about wanting to “kill”.
Remarkably, many years later, “this master” met the same man in a prison that she was “teaching” at. He actually apologized to her and they maintained a more than cordial friendship.
When the train ride ended my lesson ended. We politely said our goodbyes and promised to keep in touch. We never did. Nonetheless, I was fortunate to meet “this woman” who was a true master who I am my family had intersected in journey to Paris.
(I’d like to tell you about her days “playing” in Tokyo, hunting from horseback, in the Canadian outback, exhibiting her paintings in Venice and getting into the mind of a psychopathic killer…but, then that’s for another time.)
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
49 Joseph T. Oliva Arriola // May 22, 2008 at 12:19 am
Neijia,
OMG, of course…Tiger Woods. Your observations just hit me. You are right…I am in agreement!!! Thank you.
50 Buddy // May 22, 2008 at 1:06 am
Rob,
Yeah I was probably being hyperbolic. It’s just that I tire of his constant bloviating.
51 Joseph T. Oliva Arriola // May 22, 2008 at 1:24 am
Brian,
Just press the ignore button. From now on, that’s what I’m going to do when you speak. Otherwise, you will have to start paying me for these lessons. Say, $500 an hour.
Hmmm…so good to see that people from the dead EF/Red Leaves board are gravitating to this board. Revenues will surely increase.
52 Buddy // May 22, 2008 at 5:32 am
Well not me. I’m classic EF. I apologize for being rude Joseph, but how about going to see Tim before you make your silly pronouncements. And I promise to do the same with you.
53 Mike Sigman // May 22, 2008 at 7:18 am
Buddy: “That said, Mike, you DO hunt down your game with a tiring tenacity.”
Oh, I dunno. My major point is the same one I’ve mentioned for years… these guys who make the big, dramatic claims are one of the reasons the inexperienced neophytes wind up wasting years. So it’s always worth a remark or experienced observation if you care a little bit about the new guys.
Secondly, I seldom hunt someone down, although I admit to taking someone’s public statements for exactly like they’re presented. If someone claims to be an expert in Taiji and then can’t answer simple questions, I think the problem is not mine or that I hunted them down. That’s exactly what happened to Arriola, but I think I’m preaching to the choir, since you’re well aware of his grandiose claims.
In response to the question about “how much neijia could someone spot in the one moment of a *part* of the exchange between Wang Xiang Zhai and Kenichi Sawai, I could probably have watched Wang’s movement and said a lot. However, that’s beside the point… Arriola didn’t present some “instantaneous” exchange on his videos, he presented fairly lengthy ones. The observations (mine included) were pretty accurate: he’s claiming something he doesn’t have.
I think one of the big problems with a lot of people who have a Nanquan exposure is that there’s this idea that breaking coconuts, penis gong, and that sort of thing is “internal”, as in “neijia”, but it’s not. In reality is fairly common neigong stuff that is found in most of the “waijia”. The confusion is that “nei gong” or “nei jin gong” is literally an “internal exercise” (or internal jin exercise), but it’s not the same usage that is meant by the inclusionary term “nei jia” (internal family).
What Arriola does leans heavily into Nanquan training… which is not the type of movement and training as in Taiji. That’s the basis of the comments about “internal” that I think he misunderstands.
Of course, in saying that I realize that there will be no explanation or coherent rebuttal… it will get back to “post some tapes”, “can you fight with it”, and the usual Bullshido stuff.
Regardless, I think it’s point worth mulling over. The mixup of “neigong” and thinking it somehow implies “neijia” is a common mistake. And it’s one that someone can easily argue if they know their stuff. If they don’t know their stuff, it’s pretty obvious by what they say.
54 Chad // May 22, 2008 at 7:37 am
It is astounding how much BS we IMA folks can fling at eachother.
55 Buddy // May 22, 2008 at 8:01 am
I know Mike. It’s a good fight.
56 neijia // May 22, 2008 at 11:42 am
> BS we fling
“A virtuous person promotes agreement.
A person without virtue promotes blame.”
> blah blah blah
” We desire to understand the world by giving names to the things we see, but these things are only the effects of something subtle.”
“The Dao that can be told is not the real Dao.”
57 Becoming_Wutang // May 23, 2008 at 3:36 am
Wow -
So much talk about secrets this-and-that
Yoda would say - “Arguing about secrets to know, we must not. Practice so much that our kung fu is effortless like our bodies’ reflexes - we should.”
My two cents : Don’t focus on knowing - focus on doing- I know people who’ve been training in kung fu for a decade or two decades but they must think about their pa-kua before they can do it - and when they do it - it doesn’t look that great - because they haven’t practiced hard - they mostly know it in their head.
Also - when my teacher’s really help me (let’s call them secrets for lack of better words) - it’s usually something so specific to my strengths and weaknesses - that it’s basically not that useful for another student.
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