Tabby Cat has commented on my recent post working with resistance and he brings up some interesting points (thanks for the kind words BTW 
)
Working with resistance is all well and good, but what about parameters? When and where do you draw a line?
I was discussing push hands recently with some people that do shuai jiao and they lamented the fact that taiji people think they are barbarians because the shuai jiao people want to grab skin when executing throws in push hands.
Now let me say that if someone grabbed my skin to throw me, I’d likely start punching faces. That’s just a no-go in my book.
So here we have a line in the sand for me. But I wouldn’t say that we should abandon our methods even in the face of such challenges. We should use the methods to overcome them. Hopefully everyone’s training methods include striking, even if it isn’t part of push hands.
I see grabbing skin as an escalation. It’s the kind of thing that bullies do. Shuai jiao people that grab skin like they’re grabbing a shuai jiao jacket need to learn the difference between shuai jiao and taijiquan’s push hands. I have perhaps a bit wider idea of what push hands can be than some people, but things like grabbing skin go too far for me.
So if people want to escalate it, then responses are appropriate. Or just ending it might be a good idea.
But the problem I was addressing in the post was more subtle. People often want you do exactly what they do in push hands. They won’t accept any leeway whatsoever for their own reasons.
I see this as a subtle attack in most cases.
“That’s not push hands. You can’t do that.” So they take away one tool you have.
“You can’t step. That’s not allowed.” Take away tool number two.
“What are you doing? You can’t use qinna.” Tool three.
“Hey. I win.” Good for you.
Many times these are subtle attempts to get you to play their game. Don’t fall for these mind games.
Obviously when fighting we can’t demand that the opponent play our game.
But as Tabby says, the line on resistance isn’t so clear sometimes.
15 responses so far ↓
1 Joseph T. Oliva Arriola // May 12, 2008 at 9:34 pm
In San Francisco, 35 years ago, I met the incredible Wilson Ng at a karate tournament. Back in those days, the kwoons were not open to “outsiders”. The gung fu guys were just starting to show their stuff outside of the chinatown world.
My black belt team tore apart the gung fu team. It was the first time I saw “real” gung fu. I was shocked to see just how easy in was to beat them in the “game” of the karate tournament.
Nonetheless, the Incredible Wilson Ng and I would uncover our past lives together and our spiritual older brotherhood. Thank God, because through it, I was exposed to CMA and eventually IMA.
A year later, the incredible Wilson Ng was taking me everywhere. More importantly, he taught me about charisma. He taught me about “catching the eye” of women.
Ahhh…that’s another story. As to this thread (I keep confusing them), one day he shifted into Preying Mantis footwork. It through me off completely. Being a karate guy who went only in straight lines…I was in another world. Needless to say, I got my ass whooped that day.
As such, I went back to my karate teacher and he told me, “Step back, wait and then fire. You have been playing his game.”
I went back the next week and beat him soundly. Ahhhh…in my excitement to learn gung fu, I had played my opponents game.
Though, it was a game he was better at. It was a game though, that instinctively I needed to learn and lose at before adding it to my arsenal.
2 C.J.W. // May 12, 2008 at 9:35 pm
As a layman of Taiji PH, I am not sure if my view is correct, but isn’t it true that PH training in Taiji was meant to be done with varying levels of coorperation in order to develop certain skills since it’s only an transitional stage to San-Shou (free-fighting)?
Since the majority of Taiji players nowadays don’t free-fight, they are left with doing PH with full resistance and turn it into a wrestling match and confuse PH ability with that of real fighting.
3 Joseph T. Oliva Arriola // May 12, 2008 at 10:22 pm
C.J.W.
I can only speak for myself. As such, the PH for me provides “transitions” into all of the methods I have in my arsenal.
Because it is “water” it also acts as a means of “uncovering” technique. As such, “you” practice each “limitation” 1) go slow 2) use little strength 3) stay connected, all to simply provide “environment” for becoming water.
For me, this means becoming efficient with the use of my mind, body and energy. I don’t have the “whack” the guy to kill him. I seek to kill him with just the touch of my finger. (Now imagine a a woman shuddering in ecstasy…this is one of the things the incredible Wilson Ng taught me.)
I learn this efficiency through the push hands. As such, I quite enjoy pushing with women rather than men.
4 neijia // May 13, 2008 at 3:35 am
This lack of uniformity on the acceptable parameters is the biggest problem with ph, imho. Skin grabbing will happen by accident in practice of grappling styles and on purpose in tournaments. If it’s on purpose in training it’d irk me, too.
Big guys will use their weight and strength in bjj rolling. No one complains out loud “that’s not bjj” the way people lamely say “that’s not taiji” in ph. They suck it up and deal with it the way people should in ph (”invest in loss”). In matches there are weight classes. In self-defense, the situation may be more like the big guy using size and strength. Telling someone else he is not using the art is irrelevant. One should treat that opportunity as a gift to work on one’s own art. Maybe the key is having the teacher set and enforce the parameters for a particular group. But then it’s back to the question you are getting at - how do people have some commonly accepted parameters for working with other groups? That mind game makes it almost not worth it at all. I’ll stick to cooperative ph and widely accepted forms of uncooperative practices that can still test those ph-learned skills.
5 Scott // May 13, 2008 at 4:22 am
Push hands is a fight to the death that doesn’t go all the way.
If you can, it’s better to decide what the rules are. I’ll play any set the other person is up for. But if we are playing fixed step, the person is soft and a lot heavier than I am and they are hunkering down in the middle and I’m not allowed to use elbow or split, I’ll just take the loss.
If you want to rough it up you can always add slapping–(usually you are only allowed to slap if you are in contact with both their arms.)
It is nice to play a really subtle, gentle version of push-hands with someone who also sees it as a fight to the death–and is willing to die.
6 wayne hansen // May 13, 2008 at 5:48 am
as a young man i would play pool for money around some of the rougher pubs in inner city sydney.
the first thing you had to find out was what are the house rules.
if you didnt you would be about to win when a new rule was suddenly introduced.
these games more often than not ended up in some quick fighting lessons.
the first thing in pushing you must agree on house rules.
the only thing i think is important is does the way you push lead seamlessly into real combat application.
if not what is the point of the pushing exercise beyond ego and some type of fame.
the interview with josh waitkinz was interesting
he talks about how increadable chen is as a teacher,however after a short time he has learnt all tai chi has to offer after winning the so called world championship and is moving on to bjj.
a couple of years ago a student of a student of mine won 5 gold medals in an australian championship.
he was going down to meet my teacher for further instruction.he rang me for some last minute advice,i said make sure when you push you hang those 5 medals around your neck.
needless to say he was given a large lesson in humility.
not because my teacher wanted to humble him but simply because that is the way it is.
7 Chris | Martial Development // May 13, 2008 at 6:35 am
Wayne, great story!
Q: What do you call it when you want to invest in loss, and insist on fairness at the same time?
A: Placing your feet in two boats.
8 wayne hansen // May 13, 2008 at 9:34 am
we can take the saying ‘invest in loss’ on several levels.
investing in loss does not mean we should be pushed all over the place.
it means we should not meet force with force,and goes along with the saying
‘yield only to return’
we listen(this can be done with the eye as much as with the body)
we neutralise (invest in loss)
we follow (stick like a shodow to the object)
we complete(overwhelm our opponents ready to be beaten posture)
this can be done in a single circle or through several.
fairness should be a prerequsite.
dont push with those who feel the need to cheat.
they have little to teach.
my teacher had two sayings.
‘lay down with dogs get up with fleas’ and
’show me your friends and reveal your character’
9 meow // May 13, 2008 at 3:33 pm
quite simply, there are no rules in fighting, so there should be none (or minimal) in training, those that add all those rediculous rules are either 1. trying to teach their student something specific before moving on to an environment with more variables to deal with, or 2. they suck (because thats exactly what push hands is, an exercise in sticking (and then you move on to san shou, where you have distance etc to deal with)
id train with guys that try to grab the skin, quite simply, if you dont like it, dont let them (not just that though, i mean, if you know what youre trying to do but keep getting beat up, communicate with the guys youre training with (i.e. to go slower / stop if they get through your defense), they are your training partners
joseph! u gotta tell me your womanizing tricks!
10 Q // May 13, 2008 at 5:32 pm
Shouldn’t be much of a problem as long as you both agree to the same rules. It’s not like you have to play games you don’t like. It’s easy to say the other guy’s lame for not wanting to push things up to your level, but what if it’s the other way around where you wanted friendly push hands and the other guy wants a death match? Clarifying the rules could waste quite a bit of time when there are no standards though.
11 meow // May 13, 2008 at 7:25 pm
chris ive been reading your blog all night, you rock!
12 Joseph T. Oliva Arriola // May 13, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Meow,
No tricks. No secrets.
It’s all in the sensitivity of the PH. Though, learning to cha cha…the ultimate PH is a skill every man needs to learn.
13 Scott // May 14, 2008 at 1:13 am
Yo, Wayne, I like your writing you should get your own blog when you get the time.
There is another reason to do push-hands besides its application to fighting, and those tingly feelings of intimacy.
Push-hands can further your comprehension of fundamental metaphors, both intellectual and kinesthetic.
Some people are so anxious to digest new material that they vomit it back up rather than waiting for it to pass through.
14 wayne hansen // May 14, 2008 at 4:57 am
scott
every time someone tells me to get my own blog i think they are trying to get me off this one.
i’m a bit of a ludite and have just worked out how to use the keyboard.
if someone wants to send me an email telling me how to set up a blog i will certainly look at it.
you are right about pushing and intamacy,as a massage teachert i find pushing the best training for massage.
as for the bedroom a woman recently said to me,is everything you do pushing hands.
i liken the energy in pushing like that of a father looking after a young child,gentle,firm and attentive.
i have always seen tai chi as the kinesthetic equivalent of chess.
my own teacher will only push with certain people i am the same.
he says pushing with a certain people makes you feel’yucky’ what he means is he dosent want to take on their negative energy.
yang would say’ i am not a butchers shelf so dont lay your dead meat on me’
dont think that my teacher dosen’t take on all comers because he is afraid of challenges,i have not seen anyone he could not controll at will,he just cant see the point in painting for the blind.
a saying from his teacher is ‘dont throw a rock at every dog that barks’
be diverse but selective with your training partners,it is no point for pete sampras to have a hit with everyone who asks.
as for differing rules is there any point in la galaxy having a match with the dallas cowboys.
15 neijia // May 14, 2008 at 7:59 am
wayne - i’m another fan of your comments and had also suggested you (and joseph) do some blogging. by no means would i want you to stop commenting here. just that your stories are fascinating. i think you’d have us read your posts AND your comments. an easy way to try it is go to wordpress.com or blogger.com, sign up, and edit the default post and see what you think. if you like it, pretty soon you’ll do a few, and maybe keep it up. if not, no big deal. if you have any tech questions, feel free to reply-author on any of my replies on dave’s FN google group.
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