The following is a long quote from Rob Turtle’s comment about Marnix Wells and push hands. It’s a continuation of the thoughts started in behind the curtain. As readers know, I make long in-depth comments like this into a post so they won’t get buried int he comment section. Thanks to Rob for this.
Marnix will point out that taijichuan is precisely that… not yin chuan. He also sometimes cites the taiji adage “you can’t use force: you can’t not use force”.
Here are some quotes from an article I hosted for him on an old website…
Wáng Shùjin, my xíngyì and bagùa master in Taiwan, used to cite the concept of hard and soft interpenetrated as in hexagram 63 (Jìjì) of the Book of Change…
Each yang (postive) line lies beneath a yin (negative) line, each in its correct place: the perfect insulation. Another way of putting it is the image of steel wrapped in silk…On the other-hand my Tàijí pushing-hands teacher, Gan Xìaozhou, a leading disciple of Zhèng Mànqing, used repeatedly to stress: “Even an iota (siháo) of force cannot be used.” Relaxation (fàngsong) must be total…
These two approaches produced differences in practice and form. Wáng stressed the principle of extended power, a firm expansion from the centre of the lower abdomen right through to the tips of the fingers. Gan showed nothing in the limbs and extremities, which were limp and half-collapsed, until the moment for releasing energy (fa jìng)…
The third type of “softness” I encountered in Taiwan, was the explosive energy of Lìao Way-sun (Lìao Wèishan), from the famous martial town of Xilûo, in southern Taiwan. He had grown up with the local Springing Crane (Zonghè) style of kungfu which seems to have helped him assimilate the energies of Yáng-style Tàijí as interpreted by disciples of Zhèng Mànqing in Taibei. Zhèng himself was then in New York, but I was able subsequently to meet him on a visit and push with his disciple Tam Gibbs. His procedure was to position me in front of a wall, and attempt to uproot me onto it - unsuccesfully!
From my perspective, pushing hands with Marnix you definitely get a sense of “springiness”… he will certainly advocate yielding, but only if you need to or otherwise want to. He feels that if you only ever train softness and “giving up” then you are in danger of not being able to handle hardness in a real encounter. This was perhaps first brought home to him on the occasion cited here on the blog, and following occasions when visiting other masters in Taiwan and pushing hands behind closed doors (one memorable quote describing a particular situation which involved moving the feet to “yield” to a push in order to apply a “judo” throw “face rather than posterior suffered more that day”). It is also the reason why he supports competitive pushing hands… if the soft beats the hard then the usual complaint of “using too much force” should surely make it easier to handle and so can hardly be used as an excuse as to why you lost or even why you’re not competing in the first place!
As such we push hands in a number of ways, one of which is very much to keep strong “peng” in the frame at all times and try to absorb and uproot without “yielding” (actually, yielding is of course present, but very small… as the uproot is typically “straight back at ya” it can be misinterpreted as force against force. It isn’t)
Last thought is to relate the above back to another familiar term - that of fajìng which I define as release or expression of power, and discuss as:
Typified by short, sudden, expansion or shocking power, like “releasing the bowstring to shoot an arrow”. The bow stores energy as elastic potential (spring energy): the instant the bowstring is released, potential energy is transfered to the arrow as kinetic energy, sending it out on a given trajectory. Storage and concentrated discharge.
The most efficient manner of storing up energy through the body’s movement and posture is winding/ coiling in and the circle. This implies continuity and re-cycling both your energy and your opponent´s. Having accumulated in the circle, “shoot out” in the straight line (tangential). Power can be produced as a quick rotation around a central axis, yet the intention on release is on the tangent. Thus the physical movement itself will not be precisely linear: the muscles wrap around the bones and joints, binding in, they do not produce pure straight movment without working against one another (tension). “Seek the circular in the bent (, and the straight in the circular)” [qu-zhong qiú-zhí]
30 responses so far ↓
1 Jess O'Brien // May 2, 2008 at 1:43 am
Glad to hear the words from Rob, Marnix is an amazing resource and an articulate transmitter of Chinese martial arts from the good old days. I was hope he writes and translates more!
-Jess O
2 John Kavanagh // May 2, 2008 at 4:58 am
What Rob says is true about Marnix’s pushing hands…I was in London recently for a weekend and we did some pushing and there is this ‘rubbery’ or spring energy there are Rob says- as far as I remember, Marnix says he picked some of this up from Wang Shu Jin also, through as series of ba gua exercises and possibly Chen Pan Ling’s teacher in Japan Zhong I Zhong, but I could be wrong about this. Rob has trained with Marnix on and off over a long period…Suffice it to say- less than two weeks later he went and took a gold medal at Light Heavy in a push hands tournament run by Dan Docherty’s group in the UK- and that’s pretty much rough and tumble and not the softer end of the scale as push hands competitions go…and he’s competing, against men, literally half his age in some cases.
It would be great if he weighed in himself…
-John
3 Dave Chesser // May 2, 2008 at 7:16 am
Rob’s success in the tourney is a wonderful testament to Marnix’ teaching. Thanks for sharing that, John.
4 wayne hansen // May 2, 2008 at 2:08 pm
rather than express my thoughts again,please read my post on this on the previous posting
‘behind the curtain’
5 RobT // May 2, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Just to cliarify… it was Marnix that took gold in the recent tournament (I was away on business and couldn’t compete this year - although I do have a number of medals from previous years). I’d be one of the folks who is about 1/2 Marnix’ age…
Dan’s tournaments are good ones - the ruleset is not particularly restrictive (grabs and sweaps tend to be allowed etc.) and competition is fairly “robust”. Yes some of the folks use force (but force, well used, is a legitimate tactic) and this simply means all the better opportunity to practice absorption, yielding/ re-direction, peng etc. against people from different schools.
It may be worth noting that neither Marnix nor I train specifically for such events - we simply train as we train, and turn up to learn from the experience and see what works. We would therefore see the fact that Marnix can enter the fray in what might be considered a young man’s game (certainly, strength and fitness are important in such events) and win as a vindication of what we do.
John - sorry to have missed you when you were over this time - it was nice meeting you previously. Work has been crazy recently and I don’t get a chance to travel over to Marnix as often as I would like (it’s over an hour each way). “On and off” or not, I very much consider myself Marnix’ student and credit him for any little skill I might have.
6 Dave Chesser // May 2, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Rob,
Thanks for the clarification. Wow! So it was Marnix that competed. That is great. So few people are willing to put themselves on the line. I have lots of respect for him. Take care.
7 Alex Ferreras // May 2, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Hi everybody.
First post whilst and doing it at work so excuse it being so brief.
Thought you might find this interesting and on topic, Heres a link to Marnix (in white) competing against PTCC (Dan Docherty) from Belgium. Show as to put a name to a face, Im refereeing.
http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-8694345050433718896
And some of Marnixs apponent if your interested.
http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-4639980304102163525
Enjoy the blog dave.
Take care
Alex
8 Alex Ferreras // May 2, 2008 at 7:46 pm
I should spell check more. To clarify its a student of Dans student in Belgium
9 Alex Ferreras // May 2, 2008 at 7:47 pm
By the way, as mentioned earlier, enough respect to Marnix for mixing it up with the youngsters and not being an armchair warrior.
10 Morgan Buchanan // May 3, 2008 at 12:55 am
As I said in post on previous topic I think that we are better off doing taiji san shou than this format for trying to find functional skills that come out of our push hands practice rather than try and force a co-operative training practice into a tournament setting.
in the second video for example it seems to me that the guy on the right is asking for an uppercut and the guy on the left if too busy trying to score the point to stop the guy on the right from slipping a right forearm into the side of his neck. it looks accidental but with intent behind it (and an upright structure) it might not have been a good day for guy on left. the san shou would imo put the emphasis back on useful taiji attack and defence.
cheers
morgan
11 John Kavanagh // May 3, 2008 at 3:50 am
Good to see those clips…that was last year’s event as I recall, but it’s worth noting also that Marnix has had pretty serious cardiac surgery and has ruined one of the cruciate ligaments in a knee during such push hands encounters in recent years…remarkable that he could be still so keen to test out theory and practice after all this time and subtle it aint!
Rob, sorry to have missed you too- our weekend was a quick get together with Marnix and Allen Pittman and we had a ball- I’m claiming half of Marnix’s medal for all the ‘advanced’ work he had to do to overcome me first!!!! I hope that he will write up some new material in near future.
-John
12 Steven Smith // May 5, 2008 at 12:22 am
I like Marnix’s theories, especially the spring-load in push hands and the vision of coping with real force, but, like Morgan Buchanan, I think the applications in tournament setting leave something to be desired: self-defense.
Taiji is for burst striking, quick kills.
13 neijia // May 5, 2008 at 2:27 am
Luke Skywalker to Yoda, “I’m looking for a great warrior.”
Yoda: “Wars not make one great.”
I don’t want to practice any killing. If you are in law enforcement, I hope you get better with controls like qin na and “non lethal force”. Wars can increasingly be fought with technology that can destroy the whole world or controlled remotely for specific purposes. There are more comprehensive modern self-defense systems. However, engaging in MAFS is dangerous to health.
14 meow // May 5, 2008 at 6:22 am
those videos were horrible
15 wayne hansen // May 5, 2008 at 10:13 am
hsing 5
ba kua 8
tai chi 8 hands 5 gates.
how simple do you want it.
16 wayne hansen // May 5, 2008 at 10:14 am
that last post should have gone on the aikdo post.
sorry
17 Morgan Buchanan // May 5, 2008 at 10:31 am
“Taiji is for burst striking, quick kills.”
quick kills - i think that any sophisticated martial art has a range of responses to an attack. the best way is to use your listening skills to not be in the fight in the first place. it’s a taoist martial art - if you’re thinking killing your missing that traditional, cultural aspect to your training which is essential for function.
burst striking - that’s a yang (short technique) there’s also yin (long techniques) and outside of striking we have throwing, locking, kicking, etc…
there’s lots you can do apart from “quick kill burst striking” : )
that sounds like a good title for one of those paladin press dvd’s though
cheers
morgan
18 meow // May 5, 2008 at 4:15 pm
traditional / cultural aspects? u mean, like training people to kill in warfare, or be effective bodyguards (wasnt until recently that the upper class like to make it something else)
19 Morgan Buchanan // May 6, 2008 at 5:56 am
warfare and bodyguards do not sum up the entirety of chinese martial arts origins or practitioners. imperial princes practiced martial arts and taiji, not to mention the extensive temple traditions at shaolin monastary and the other numerous temples around northern and southern china. not to mention villages who kept martial arts traditions alive for self defense and out of respect for the ancestors who practiced or founded their local art.
manners, humility, loyalty, station and an ability to follow your teachers instruction are all traditional values and are still imo valuable to understanding cma. you probably won’t agree but at the end of the day, for me, it’s about the kind of person you become through the practice, the self defense, as valuable as it is, is a tool to managing the self, personal character, which is the constant ongoing battle. i think cma has always been part of teaching traditional values, in my understanding chinese culture is very all encompassing, all of the traditional arts feed back into its base ideas.
an understanding of yin/yang, chi, the 3 essential schools of philosophy will also help. cmas are an art form, a martial “art”, and are designed to open you up to something bigger than yourself, the martial function is one aspect of a deep cultural practice which is important to comprehend in order to advance in cma.
cheers
morgan
20 Hermann // May 6, 2008 at 8:44 am
I can’t keep up reading all your posts, besides work, family, and training.
But the praise on Chinese culture (have you guys ever lived longer periods in China/Taiwan?) seems rather naive to me. CMA does not make enlightend or ethically sound, it’s a craft only and mastery in woodwork wouldn’t create a guru, would it?
Met several masters and advanced adepts, who’s attidudes are highly questionable.
And after my wife’s open heart surgery in a Taiwan hospital and some 30 years of studying Chinese culture (parctically, 16 years in Taiwan/China and theoretically up to a Ph.D. in sinology), I have profound doubts.
21 Morgan Buchanan // May 6, 2008 at 9:00 am
hi hermann,
not naive , the cultural aspects of cma is about an ideal to work towards over time.
every society has an ideal of how to live and then tool/methods for achieving it (culture). as within any art/tool/method it is up to the individual to engage with it and see how far they get.
like most ideals the majority of us (including myself) fall far short, but it’s better to have an ideal to work towards than nothing at all. it gives focus and direction to practice.
i try to focus on the ideal and the people working towards achieving it rather than the side of society that doesn’t get close, or actively works against the ideal, otherwise, as you suggest, it gets too depressing : )
cheers
morgan
22 Morgan Buchanan // May 6, 2008 at 9:01 am
“I can’t keep up reading all your posts, besides work, family, and training.”
also have family, training and work but have had a little bit of extra time this week hence the increased activity : )
cheers
morgan
23 meow // May 7, 2008 at 6:19 pm
my ideal is to be able to bash anyone, hence i do combat
24 meow // May 7, 2008 at 6:21 pm
hermann, supposedly this is what those adepts and masters were good at right? if thats what youre saying, where can i find em in taiwan?
25 wayne hansen // May 8, 2008 at 5:12 am
you can only find what you are looking for the day you stop looking.
26 Hermann // May 8, 2008 at 10:07 am
Meow, didn’t Dave publish a guide to Taiwan`s ICMA?
If you come, you will find, I’m sure about that.
27 Tim // May 8, 2008 at 4:27 pm
Hermann,
I agree with you wholeheartedly about this. Chinese culture comes with good and bad like all cultures. It is only when people stop exoticizing it that they can see this….I think so many people want to escape their ”home” and so try to find greener grass somewhere else.
Your note about the ph.d. in sinology is well taken too. I know a few overseas Chinese who’ve spent lots of time in school on the mainland, only to find out…how American they really were.
Anyways, it’s the exoticization (by Chinese and non-Chinese alike) that is killing the arts I think.
28 Hermann // May 9, 2008 at 11:46 am
Thanks, Tim, you put it in much better words than I could do it in my rough English.
So let`s stay as objective as we can, in order to avoid the exoticization.
Away from one’s own culture we get a better perspective on it, and maybe, we also can see our guest culture a bit clearer, with pros and cons.
29 Kenneth Fish // May 16, 2008 at 2:23 am
Is this what passes for pushing hands these days? In the early 1990’s Scott Rodell and I ran some traditional CMA tournaments - we had noticed the trend towards this kind of shoving match, and decided we were not going to “go with the flow” on this aspect. We had very strict rules - moving step engagements all started with fixed step peng/ji/lu/an or horizontal circling push hands - three rotations, then the opponents were allowed to move and step and so on. As soon as the match began to degenerate to shove etc, we broke and began the engagement again. In this manner he players who could follow, yield, step and evade did the best in each match. The videos here look like shoving matches in an elementary school yard.
KJF
30 wayne hansen // May 16, 2008 at 6:13 am
ken
at last some real comment
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