http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_ce00XMjI5ODE5MjA=.html
(How can I download this clip? I want to to post it to youtube.)
This clip slays a whole lot of sacred cows. I think this is the most explosive clip since Chen Xiao-wang’s debacle with Liao Bai.
This is a push hands competition from 1992 showing some of the biggest names in mainland taiji all competing against one another. They are all grandmasters.
First bout: Li En-jiu vs. unknown. Li is a Chen stylist that studied under Hong Jun-sheng.
Second: Wei Shu-ren vs. Men hui-feng. Wei is a Yang stylist known for advocating the “no force” perspective. Men is THE top wushu teacher in China , a leading proponent of wushu taiji, practices everything under the sun, and was awarded the first 10 duan rank by the Chinese government. Yes I know, no one’s ever heard of him. He’s unknown in the West.
Third bout: Li Bing-ci vs. Lin Mo-gen. Li is a Wu stylist. Lin was a top student of Li Ya-xuan (a disciple of YCF).
Fourth bout: Liu Cheng-de vs. unknown. Liu is a Chen stylist again from the Hong lineage and is in one of my favorite push hands clips.
Fifth bout: Xin Yu-he vs. Men Hui-feng. I know nothing about Xin. Maybe someone can fill me in.
Sacred cows slain
1. “Push hands competitions are worthless.” This is such a great clip because we get to see how things REALLY are when people (here high level) push. And guess what? It doesn’t look all that much different from any other push hands tournament, except perhaps a bit better.
2. “The “no force” approach is the be-all, end-all of IMA.” The biggest surprise for me was Wei Shu-ren’s performance. Let’s just say I found it severely lacking, as apparently did his opponent. I’m really, really struggling to not say more about this. Must….hold…..back….
3. “Wushu taiji is worthless.” I was shocked by Men’s performance. I’ve never seen him do anything but forms. Men is the driving force behind much of wushu taiji. Yes, WUSHU. So let’s state this more bluntly: Men took the best Wei had to offer and didn’t move an inch. Apparently Men is pretty damn good despite his wushu. Who would you rather take private lessons from? 
I feel as if I could say more but I’ll cut this short for now.
Random thoughts
Lin Mo-gen would have loved the UFC. Was he determined to win or what? Li Bing-ci looks like he didn’t want any of Lin. Maybe he didn’t know what he was in when pushing with Lin. After getting thrown down a second time, he wisely called it quits. But Lin’s use of force kind of puts his other clips into perspective.
Li En-jiu’s bout also showed lots of force on both sides and grabbing of clothes, etc. Again, this is how stuff really works in the real world.
Liu Cheng-de …ugh…what is he doing? Hes the one on the right at the beginning.
Xin is also bound and determined to win. Although he throws some massive techniques at Men, Men does a fairly good job at absorbing them.
All-in-all I’m really impressed with Men and glad to see some reality thrust into Wei’s world.
But the real winner is us. For once, we get to see how real push hands is done and it doesn’t look like the clips between teachers and compliant students. Bravo.
30 responses so far ↓
1 Edward // Apr 28, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Isn’t Men Huifeng 9th duan? (I think that 9th is the highest level in the PRC…) Of course, he did learn from many traditional teachers - we just don’t know who he learned taijiquan from…
2 renli // Apr 28, 2008 at 9:41 pm
http://www.downloadhelper.net/
3 Michael // Apr 29, 2008 at 1:39 am
On the Wei Shu-ren / Men hui-feng bout: To be fair, the PH match doesn’t absolutely incriminate Wei - who I felt looked good, despite being match against what was clearly a superior opponent in Men, himself a “top ten” Martial Arts Prof from China.
4 Jess O'Brien // Apr 29, 2008 at 2:34 am
I’ve heard about Men Hui Feng from Kumar Frantzis. He was one of Kumar’s Tai Chi teachers back in the 80’s and Kumar said he was really good. Nice to actually see him in action! Cool vid.
-Jess O
5 Notendo // Apr 29, 2008 at 3:18 am
Which one is Men? What colour is his shirt?
6 tom // Apr 29, 2008 at 6:38 am
I’ll venture two observations, one obvious and one [at least on this blog] controversial.
First, the skill levels of the folks shown in the clip will have changed during the intervening 16 years. I’d venture to say that Liu Chengde, for example, improved.
Second–and this is just my observation—with respect to Wei Shuren, I think he haf Men Hui Feng clearly off balance. What I see is Men bobbing up and down trying to shake it off when WSR takes his center. WSR by contrast is relatively still. Men did not move him. WSR did not need to do any more to establish his advantage.
For all of the encounters on the clip, it is true that none of them were working with their students–but it is also true that some would have been concerned about face for both themselves and their opponents in a public venue. Then again, this clearly did not hinder Lin Mogen or Li Enjiu. ; - ]
7 Dave Chesser // Apr 29, 2008 at 10:21 am
Tom,
I think it’s fairly natural for different people to see different things in the clip.
For me, Men is clearly slipping Wei’s control. I’ve seen this before particularly in the taiji daoyin guys. They look like they are off balance because they have excellent balance control that goes far beyond what most of us could hope to achieve. My choy lai fut teacher had this also through his mastery of drunken boxing. People who have that kind of balance aren’t bothered by what takes other people off balance.
As to concerns about face, your final comment clears it up for me. Clearly many were interested in saving face by winning. So to me, this clip shows some rare and solid stuff.
The main thing I got out of it was the non-cooperative nature of the work and how much it looked like a normal PH comp. Again, I feel this is how it really is when people meet instead of the clips with compliant students.
8 tom // Apr 29, 2008 at 11:42 am
Agreed–for most of the pairings there was quite a bit of what is often decried in tournamen6 push-hands.
As to Men–I’ll just agree to disagree. AgainMen did not or could not do anything to Wei. I won’t venture beyond that–the clip wasn’t clear enough [for me],, and I wasn’t there.
All in all, a very interesting and as you point out rare clip, regardless of who we might think dominated.
9 meow // Apr 29, 2008 at 12:41 pm
id like to see fights of high level tai chi guys vs other stylists, n e 1 got any?
10 Frank Bellemare // Apr 29, 2008 at 1:15 pm
I don’t know about PH competitions, but I know that what I saw did not look great. There were some good neutralizations by some of the masters, most notably Men Huifeng, but there was a general absence of footwork, using actual techniques and changing.
Most of the matches looked like two guys leaning on each other, one waiting for the other to commit. But then again I don’t know the rules for those PH matches–they seemed awfully restrictive though. Is this really what master-level push hands is?
11 Dave Chesser // Apr 29, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Frank,
Yes, I was surprised that the wushu guy was the ONLY one that did any neutralization. Isn’t that interesting.
FWIW one of my teachers here went to Beijing and studied with Men and said his push hands was awesome. He couldn’t say enough good things about him but the first words out of my mouth were “you mean the wushu guy with white hair?”
What did I know?
12 Behind the curtain // Apr 29, 2008 at 2:48 pm
[…] Comments Dave Chesser on When taiji masters get realFrank Bellemare on When taiji masters get realmeow on When taiji masters get realmeow on The missing […]
13 kazama // Apr 29, 2008 at 7:35 pm
I agree with Tom, Wei’s PH is beter than Men.
Men dont dare to push Wei becouse if he push he lose, so he only try dont lose his center.
However in the last PH Men push clearly to oponent.
14 wujimon // Apr 29, 2008 at 8:50 pm
First off, I also agree with Tom in that I thought Wei’s was much better than Men in how he often took over Men’s center. Just look at all the movement Men does and the undulation of his lower back, to me, that’s getting your center knocked out from under ya
The Li vs unknown was interesting and in that he controlled the unknown dude like a ragdoll.
I was quite surprised by the outcome of the third match (Li Bing-ci vs. Lin Mo-gen). I am assuming Lin was the dude on the left? If so, he was totally dominating Li pushing him off balance at every falter point.
The Liu Cheng-de vs. unknown was really more, IMO, a match on biomechanics in that each one was trying to get under each other or take out the front knee. I was more impressed with Li En-jiu’s display.
In the last match, it was interesting to see all the xingyi type neutralization Men was using.
Overall, nice video and find
15 Darius // Apr 29, 2008 at 9:00 pm
Nice footage. I think what its shows, more than anything else, is that tuishou is a method for practicing and learning certain taiji-specific skills, rather than a method for fighting. When you conflate the purpose of the two, we get these push-shove-trytoinjecttechnique bouts that end in one of two ways, depending on who is involved: a) if it’s a teacher-student duo the student will be propelled back and sometimes put to the ground using qinna or very basic techniques b) if it’s between two relative equals, one will be put off balance. It demonstrates specific neutralising and rooting skills, but because actual ‘attack’ is so limited in scope and sophistication, it doesn’t provide insight into how the practitioner would deal with a full-on, multi-pronged offensive.
Without passing any kind of judgement, none of the people shown in this clip did anything that would have any significance in a real bout in which both parties were trying to defeat each other. I think push hands is a wonderful method for teaching the principles and basics of taiji in an applied but relatively ‘controlled’ way, but it’s only when these principles are integrated in sparring that we can really see their usefulness for combat. The people in the clip may be highly skilled fighters, but there is no way that we could tell that from the footage. As we all know too well, it’s a very different game to start with wrist/elbow contact within the context of tuishou vs. having to bridge distance, connect with the opponents centre, neutralise aggressive attacks, unbalance, apply techniques and, ultimately, defeat an opponent who is genuinely trying to bring you down. Push hands, at least in my view, is a great tool for training the sensitivities and principles that make taiji unique and give it its special flavour, but it shouldn’t be conflated with sparring or fighting. The clips give us little knowledge of these teachers’ ability to apply their art under more free-flowing conditions. Just my view, for whatever it’s worth.
16 Morgan Buchanan // Apr 29, 2008 at 9:29 pm
my view too darius : ) great post!
exactly what i wanted to say but didn’t have time to write so thanks for that. all i would add is that the “magic” effects of tai chi and ima (the guy flying off or falling in a heap with a light touch, etc..) work best when they are activated in a real time scenario when the opponent’s centre is committed to the attack, which is why we fail to see them in push hands competitions again and again (darius’s point about the wrist/elbow starting point, in most instances, negates the commitment of the other person centre of gravity) and it just looks like bad wrestling (even if you are a master apparently). an exception might be if the skill difference between two players is large enough, you might see some of the good stuff from fixed step push hands starting from the set connections, but most of the time it tends not to arise without a realistic/committed attack to activate the trained body to stick, neutralise, absorb and return.
cheers
morgan
17 Dave Chesser // Apr 29, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Morgan,
The problem that I see is that few people other than the untrained commit their center energy to that extent. Any one with any training in anything will not just throw their center forward like that.
This is another aspect of PH comps that I like. It’s a test of skill between two skilled people.
As I see it, it’s our job to use ting jing to sense the opponent’s weaknesses and either overextend them or take advantage of weaknesses in their committed stances.
Naturally any attack on their part should expose a weakness in some area but I wouldn’t expect them to throw their center at us.
BTW, this is the most often made criticism of aikido and potent one at that.
18 Darius // Apr 30, 2008 at 12:48 am
Hi Dave,
Perhaps the real problem is that taiji practioners don’t generally train with people from other styles and brackgrounds? Push hands requires a certain understanding of the principles and rules of the game, i.e. for both sides to at least initially adhere to the push hands format. Inviting a skilled boxer with no push hands experience to do push hands and requring that it start out with contact, and subsequently defeating him within that pre-determined context, is hardly a demonstration of taiji fighting skills. If push hands is our main entry point for applying technique, we’ll only be able to use taiji against other taiji people who agree to the format.
Put a boxer or any other martial artist against a taiji person and don’t limit the format - how well will the taiji person be able to use the skills trained in push hands in that kind of lightning fast situation, unless the skills have been trained that way? Not well at all. So push hands can train important skills, but it alone cannot train the practitioner how to apply taiji in unrehearsed sparring/fighting. That needs to be done through repetitive single movement and combination practice with two people where the principles of push hands are applied in a much more realistic manner.
“As I see it, it’s our job to use ting jing to sense the opponent’s weaknesses and either overextend them or take advantage of weaknesses in their committed stances.”
I totally agree with this, especially the part about overextending the opponent/setting them up. But unless we train this with people who don’t adhere to the tuishou format, we’re never going to be skilled at using taiji as a martial art. If this is the case - that push hands can really only be fruitfully trained when both parties have experience with push hands and adhere to certain rules - then push hands is really just one of many steps in the taiji training hierarchy, and one that is not really about application but about preparing for applications that at least try to adhere to certain taiji principles. Those who have seen taiji in sparring situations know that it never looks clean, but the principles of listening, following, not resisting and so fort can still be very meaningfully applied if trained appropriately.
Just some more thoughts…
19 Joseph T. Oliva Arriola // Apr 30, 2008 at 1:39 am
Separate boxes and Sectarianism
Everything changes and evolves. Sometimes, the essence gets lost and in fact we see de-evolvement.
I came to tai chi chuan when I was 25 years old. I am now in my 52 year of life. Before, tai chi chuan, I studied everything under the sun (judo, karate, wing chun, hung gar, hapkido etc etc) I even thought I was pretty good.
However, at 25 I was already seeing that my 16 and 17 year old students, were getting, faster, bigger and stronger. Fortunately, I was honest with myself. I knew that I had to do something if I still wanted to “win”.
One day, the great Wilson Ng, took me aside and said, I’ve found a Tai Chi Chuan teacher Yang style who learned from Dong. Do you want to learn with me? I said, yes.
Unknowingly, my prayer was answered. My hard, became harder, stronger and faster. I could again beat my own students. Interestingly, it wouldn’t be until I had a heart attack in my mid forties did I truly start to “feel” the soft.
My tai chi chuan came alive. I no longer needed the “set”. I had become formless. The ranges, far, mid and close were found all at the intersection of the “blend”. The connectedness of the “grasp” allowed me to control my opponents without them being award. The “manipulation” allowed me the use of cavity strike, pressure points, joint technique, leg sensitivity, and grappling. One formless movement became a store of infinite technique.
(Interestingly, in my spiral of learning, I am now currently back to the “postures”. But, this time in the illusion of the postures…I am integreting formlessness.
IMO, age, experience, life experiences, weapons and the knowledge of other martial artists created the “living extention” of the tai chi. It is a tai chi that is connected to all others past, present and future. I learn through the “channel ” of others, the “expressions” of masters that are now in essence.
As such, there is not a separateness of tai chi, vs. wing chun, vs preying mantis. There is a connection. I know how to fight against the grappler, the karate guy, the caporiesta because of the “acquired over the years, knowledge” that has become embedded in the “living tai chi chuan”.
As such, it is in the transitions and it is in the form we take to “win” against our opponents…whatever shape, style or form they take.
Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
20 Dave Chesser // Apr 30, 2008 at 8:43 am
Darius,
I perfectly agree with what you’re saying. But we can’t even get taiji people to work what they do against other taiji people. How on earth are we going to get them to work against other styles?
If we can’t do anything of the things you discuss in our own PH format (what we supposedly specialize in) then how are we going to them outside that format?
It just won’t happen IMO.
It’s like asking people to run marathons when they’re still at the crawling stage.
Again, this is what I like about PH comps. It shows what taiji people can really do against resistance. And sure, it’s abysmal. It is. But it shows the reality which gives us a least a place to start.
BTW good to see you back.
21 taijiquestion // Apr 30, 2008 at 9:03 am
I’ll just venture one opinion. Not about the the push hands, I am in no way qualified. But “saving face by winning” caught my eye. This strikes me as a western conception.
I don’t believe that face, in the classic sense, is ours to save or sacrifice in a direct-control manner. Rather, I gain or lose face based upon how others treat me.
22 meow // Apr 30, 2008 at 12:20 pm
dave, with the weakness being exposed, thats not true, that would be unskilled m.a. to leave undefended openings etc (im not saying it doesnt happen, but its bad technique.)
taiji is an awesome art, nice efficiency etc, just crap training methods, thats why it takes ten years before you can leave the house, and maybe 1 in ten mil might hope to be able to use it.
23 wayne hansen // Apr 30, 2008 at 12:29 pm
saving face is huge in chinese circles.
24 FACE, HOW THE WORLD SEES US « Taiji.quest.ion // Apr 30, 2008 at 1:22 pm
[…] http://formosaneijia.com/2008/04/28/when-taiji-masters-get-real/ […]
25 Internalsearcher // May 1, 2008 at 4:15 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEeBTKdoeD0&locale=en_US&persist_locale=1
26 Internalsearcher // May 1, 2008 at 4:19 am
Can I use some of your text for the infobox ?
27 Shang Lee // May 1, 2008 at 11:50 pm
Dave, your sad but true anecdote really sums up tai ji PH (on how tai ji people deal with resistance). Really hope we’ll do better. This is a good start, creating awareness. Thanks for putting the clip up!
28 Joseph T. Oliva Arriola // May 2, 2008 at 12:10 am
1. force against force
2. force thrust toward reception
3. force directed, manipulated, managed, thrown back
4. force metamorphesis
When you are young it is good to practice external gung fu. When you are middle aged it is good to compare and contrast the internal and the external. Both methods become better. My hard becomes harder my soft becomes softer.
“Hit me. Hit harder”, I scream as I go slower, softer and with true intent. He is scared of hitting harder. He is scared of “resisting me”. He knows that the harder he hits, the more he resists the more he will feel pain.
Simple physics. The greater your velocity the harder you hit the ground. The adept guides and directs the the strike and the resistence…and the opponent feels greater pain.
Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
29 Jean-Philippe Ranger // May 3, 2008 at 4:43 am
Here is some interesting information on the background and format of this competition posted by Chen Zhonghua on his website.
http://chenzhonghua.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1053&Itemid=160
30 Jamie // Jun 1, 2008 at 1:50 pm
Hi Everyone,
What I really liked about this footage is the amount of listening energy and constant change/neutralizing shown by these men. If you didn’t have a pretty good level of push hands experience then this footage would seem boring, like guys leaning on each other. If you watch closely and have ever pushed in this way its pretty exciting to see so many fine examples of Taiji skill.
a good screen capture software is called ZD Soft Screen Recorder.
Best
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