I can’t recommend Douglas Wile’s Lost Tai’-Chi Classics from the Late Ch’Ing Dynasty (Chinese Philosophy and Culture)
Here’s a great quote showing how the spiritual and martial sides of the taiji support one another. Warning! This quote barbecues a lot of people’s sacred cows on both sides:
The spiritual is the essence, the martial is the application. Spiritual development in the realm of the martial arts is applied through the jing, qi, and shen — the practice of physical culture. When the martial is matched with the spiritual and is experienced in the body and mind, this then is the practice of martial arts. With the spiritual and the martial we must speak of the “firing time,” for their development unfolds according to the proper sequence. This is the root of physical culture.
As the spiritual and the martial are applied to sparring, we must consider the appropriate use of storing and issuing. This is the root of the martial arts. Therefore, the practice of of the martial arts in a spiritual way is soft-style exercise, the sinew power of jing, qi, and shen. When the martial arts are practiced in an exclusively martial way, this is the hard style, or simply brute force. The spiritual without martial trianing is the essence without application; the martial without spiritual accompaniment is application without essence. A lone pole cannot stand; a single palm cannot clap. This is not only true of physical culture and martial arts, but all things are subject to this principle. The spiritual is internal principle; the martial is external skill. External skill without internal principle is simply physical ferocity. This is a far cry from the original nature of the art, and by bullying the an opponent one eventually invites disaster. To understand the internal principles without the external skill is simply an armchair art. Without knowing the applications, one will be lost in an actual confrontation. When it comes to applying this art, one cannot afford to ignore the significance of the two worlds: spiritual and martial.
This is exactly what I think we should be working towards.
25 responses so far ↓
1 M. Reynolds // Mar 30, 2008 at 12:14 pm
This is Ban Hou talking? Sounds exactly like the Yang style I study. Very cool.
2 Dave Chesser // Mar 30, 2008 at 2:13 pm
That was attributed to him, yes. Lots of good stuff like that in the book.
3 Yuri Snisarenko // Mar 30, 2008 at 7:53 pm
“Spiritual development in the realm of the martial arts is applied through the jing, qi, and shen — the practice of physical culture. When the martial is matched with the spiritual and is experienced in the body and mind, this then is the practice of martial arts. With the spiritual and the martial we must speak of the “firing time,” for their development unfolds according to the proper sequence.”
“文者体也，武者用也。文功在武，用于精气神也，为之体育，武功得文，体於心身也，为之武事。 夫文武又有火候之谓，在放卷得其時中，体育之本也，文武使于对待之际，在蓄发适当其可，武事之根也。”
That’s imo how Yang family used to practice in old times, and that’s what I was thought in dajia style of Yang Chengfu nowadays.
4 Yuri Snisarenko // Mar 30, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Edit - “was taught” of course
5 Yuri Snisarenko // Mar 30, 2008 at 10:19 pm
Regarding the recent discussion I would like to hear from non-bodily strength camp (in Yang style) what jing (essence) has to do with practice in Yang style taiji then? And what “firing time” means? And where is Yi in that equation of jing-qi-shen?…..
Sorry, that I am continuing this, but I am a little tired to hear constant detraction of Yang Chengfu style in the web. Most of you may just ignore this my muttering
6 neijia // Mar 30, 2008 at 10:36 pm
I think so too but the words trip me up a bit. I don’t follow the Chinese word shen 神 or the English word “spiritual” very well.
7 wayne hansen // Mar 31, 2008 at 5:10 am
yuri
you have got it right.
if half the people talking had been taught in the right manner from the start they would not ask the questions they do.
the form would answer the questions for them.
tai chi is passed on from hand to hand.
if your teacher had it and you practice as told you will get it.
my teacher calls ‘firing time’ letting the tea leaves settle.
8 Yuri Snisarenko // Mar 31, 2008 at 11:48 am
“my teacher calls ‘firing time’ letting the tea leaves settle.”
Very interesting, thanks Wayne
9 Scott // Apr 1, 2008 at 12:41 am
Is “firing time” a metaphor for ceramics, forging a sword, or alchemy?
If it is a sword it would mean the process of heating, pounding and cooling over and over as the metal becomes harder and more flexible. (Basically, practice a whole lot.)
If it is ceramics (which the English expression “firing time” would be most likely to mean) it would refer to a process of bringing a kiln to a very high temperature over days and then stalling it in a reduced oxygen environment to bring the oxygen linked molecules (bright colors) to the surface–and then slowly dropping the temperature so that crystals have time to grow in the glaze!
If it is alchemy than the meaning refers to the process is a kiln with in a kiln (creating a vacuum). This would require a perfectly remote and secret location, the perfect combination of ingredients, and a firing period of at least six months, possibly years. The process requires enough energy to transform cinnabar (mercury ++) into gold….the equivalent of an linear accelerator.
Go to it gang!
10 Yuri Snisarenko // Apr 1, 2008 at 10:53 am
Good post, Scott. Not often we can see that people muse about the roots of neijia….
11 YMAA.com // Apr 1, 2008 at 9:20 pm
The Yi leads the Qi.
It isn’t mentioned in that quote, but Yang ban Hou always emphasized this point. I must also mention that I prefer this translation of the Taiji Classics, which has a more Chinese perspective.
http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/books/internal/tai_chi_secrets_yang_style
Also - thought you might enjoy this (illegal) video I happened upon on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyvJ6cwTlbU
Thanks Dave, and all - we should continue to trace back to the roots of the arts so we can correctly pass it on to the next generation.
12 Dave Chesser // Apr 2, 2008 at 9:59 am
YMAA,
I have two of Dr. Yang’s works on the classics: Taichi Secrets of the Ancient Masters and the collection of Wu style classics. I like both of them.
One of the great things about Dr. Yang’s stuff is that he includes the Chinese texts. I love that.
I see that his Yang classics includes Ban-hou’s 9 secret poems. Excellent! Those are some of the best classics in existence. I could use a second commentary on those so I’ll pick that up when I can. Thanks!
13 Yuri Snisarenko // Apr 2, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Sorry, I don’t understand Dr. Yang’s approach to taiji. I consider the explanation of jin as li + qi is related more to Shaolin styles camp than to taiji-quan. In taiji, jin is rather opposed to li (muscular force say as in boxing) in my pov. To rely on li in study of taiji-quan is rather unproductive imho. Qi – in Yang Chengfu style is also rather byproduct than a thing that stand on the first place. So why li and qi? In Shaolin based styles li (muscular force) is combined with qi and produces explosive strength – that’s true.
” The Yi leads the Qi. ”
Yes of course, but what does it actually mean? Why classics say “if yi is on qi – then no li, if on shen – then pure steel”. ? We usually never hear that in qigong practice (simply- they don’t hunt for jin) , so I also don’t understand the attempts to explain taiji with qigong theories… ( under “qigong” I mean the term that was born in the middle of the last century).
But please don’t take my words as offence. I am not a master; it’s just what I think from my experience of Yang Chengfu style study. And I never studied Yang Banhou’s style.
14 Dave Chesser // Apr 2, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Yuri,
Interestingly, the san nei he do mention li. The third requirement is that the qi harmonizes with the li. This part of the liuhe is perhaps more from a xingyi perspective in some people’s way of thinking.
So I’m not sure if Dr. Yang is saying that or not, but if he is maybe that’s where it comes from.
15 Yuri Snisarenko // Apr 2, 2008 at 1:35 pm
First, I would like to make a correction of the phrase I quoted. The exact text is:
“Throughout the whole body, the intent (yi) is on the spirit of vitality (jingshen), not on the qi. If it is on the qi, then there will be stagnation. One who has it on the qi will have no strength. One who does not have it on the qi will attain pure hardness”.
‘Masnering Yang style taijiquan’, p.215.
In Chinese:
全身意在精神。不在气。在气则滞。有气者无力。无气者纯刚。
As far as san nei he concerned – it’s a prerequisite imho. When you get jin (understood it and experienced it), then you don’t need to think about that HE any more – it becomes automatic.
16 Scott // Apr 4, 2008 at 10:41 am
Yuri,
You won’t make a very good driver if you give your attention (yi) to the pedals and the steering (qi). Your intent (yi) should be outside the car (shen), or at least on your cup of coffee and your cell phone (jing).
Bad driver = stagnation.
You know, I would probably have skipped talking about strength if it was my “classic”; if the yi is on the qi it means you’re not very relaxed. If you want strength, the muscles have to follow the qi, which is led by the yi. Pure hardness, I believe, is another way of saying shi, potential energy/strategic advantage.
17 Weakness With a Twist » My comments on other blogs and some reruns // Apr 4, 2008 at 10:58 am
[…] left a few comments on other blogs today. Two are here on the subject of martial arts metaphors. Another one (at the bottom) is on self-defense as a way […]
18 Yuri Snisarenko // Apr 4, 2008 at 11:45 am
Scott, good words.
Humans have body and mind. These two realms are inherited by us from the early childhood. Does a kid feel qi? No. Does a kid need to feel qi. No. Why? Because he/she is in other state of being than an adult. In Chinese it’s called Xiantian – Preheaven. Houtain – is what relates to contrived knowledge – Postheaven. Most adults have it a lot.
To understand taiji one must know that there is internal and external part of it. Internal is what in daojia is called “returning to xiantian”. External is – the FORM. In Yang Chengfu style (I don’t know much about other styles) one uses external – FORM – to “enter to the Dao” through the internal process of returning to Xiantian. Jing-qi-shen is daojiao (daoists’) way primarily. To understand it – better to speak with someone who has firsthand knowledge about that.
19 Flagon // Apr 4, 2008 at 2:12 pm
As I understand it (for what its worth), xiatian (pre heaven) refers to our inherited chi from our parents at conception (probably a chinese version of genes) whereas houtian chi is the chi from food drink and air. I think xiatian is what is also called yuan (scource) chi stored in the Chinese Kidneys and is supplemented by houtian chi.
20 Yuri Snisarenko // Apr 4, 2008 at 2:42 pm
That’s what TCM says, yeah?
I would advise you to look into daojiao theories.
21 Flagon // Apr 4, 2008 at 2:50 pm
ok thanks Yuri, can you advise any reference?
22 Yuri Snisarenko // Apr 4, 2008 at 3:58 pm
In English - the book that is mentioned on the top has interesting content to muse about.
In Chines you have more options
《武当三丰太极拳》 as one example. It’s available through lionbooks online-store in Taiwan, I believe. However it’s much better to get basic knowledge on that subject from a teacher first.
Indeed, I’ve found it on lionbooks -
http://www.lionbooks.com.tw/Detail.aspx?ProductID=C-10060
23 Flagon // Apr 4, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Thanks for your going to so much trouble. I’ll follow up on your leads.
24 M. Reynolds // Apr 10, 2008 at 8:05 pm
Just ordered this! Can’t wait til it comes in.
25 M. Reynolds // Apr 10, 2008 at 8:26 pm
Oh and Flagon and Yuri: Flagon has it right if we’re discussing Xiantian/Houtian Jing(pre-heaven and post-heaven essence) aka Tong Qi and Rong or Ying Qi. (Ancestral Qi and Miraculous or Nutritive Qi) This isn’t a TCM thing, this is a classical Chinese medicine thing and comes straight out of the Huang Di Nei Jing Ling Shu. Of course the Dao Jia usage of the terminology implies something slightly different but still similar enough to merit using the same terms. Such is Chinese.
For the sake of seeing what you guys come up with heres a paraphrase of how the Ling Shu defines Tong Qi and Rong Qi:
Tong Qi is the innate essence acquired at conception from the fusing of the original yin and yang in the form of sperm and egg. This energy is always at work from that moment forward, driving the yin and yang cycle which creates the body (cellular division, meet the 64 Hexagrams!). Upon completion of the form, the Tong Qi still continues to work as the force that powers the continual pumping of the diaphragm, which is the engine of both Qi and Blood in the body.
Rong or Ying Qi (same thing) is the acquired essence obtained from the combination of Gu Qi (from food) and Kong Qi (from the air) that then is ’shipped’ to the organs which allows them to do their thing on multiple levels (i.e. Heart is able to pump Blood, govern the Vessels, manifest as speech, express the Xin, and house the Shen).
To effectively perform a tonifying treatment, you have to combine not only the Acquired Essence (which is what TCM solely focuses on) but also to combine it with the Innate Essence (something I understand the ancient doc’s got from the Daoist Alchemists) before directing it to where it needs to go.
I feel like there’s something there applicable to Neijiaquan and Qigong but uhh I can’t think of it just yet. So food for thought nonetheless.
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