I was reading a smaller martial arts forum the other day and I came across an interesting discussion. A woman in her late 50’s that trains taichichuan said that she trains hard everyday but that she would stop any time she felt any pain and try to ascertain the source of the pain. She would find the problem with her practice, make adjustments accordingly and then continue training. By doing this, she was able to eventually train longer and even eventually completed an all day seminar on taichi. Naturally she was proud of herself.
I could tell right away that she was a Yang stylist. Her emphasis on being aware of her own internal landscape showed me that. I was pleased to read this success story.
But then I was surprised at the next several posts from what were obviously Chen style people.
They criticized her for not “eating bitter” and apparently working through the pain. They told her that acquiring skill was a painful process that was to be endured. Otherwise, she would never get any where. They thought that she wasn’t working hard enough according to their paradigm.
I was disappointed to read this because it’s obvious that few people understand the Yang way of training. Especially many Chen style folks.
In Yang style, being aware of what is going on in the body is very important. You don’t want to numb yourself through the training, you want the training to actually increase your awareness. That awareness told this women where her faults were and this is the type of awareness that lays a solid foundation for neigong training and push hands. It’s what separates Yang from Chen style.
What the Chen folks seem to have missed is that the woman WAS able to practice harder/longer through using her paradigm. Her awareness made that possible. But because the paradigm is different, there was no understanding.
Chen and Yang have their own ways of training and perhaps both are valid. But of the two, the Yang style way is harder for most to understand.
13 responses so far ↓
1 AnYuan // Mar 4, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Isn’t that generalizing people a little bit? I tend to believe what’s good for one person may not be good for another. After all we are all different aren’t we?
I’m sure Yang people don’t all train the same, as I’m sure Chen people don’t either.
2 Thomas // Mar 4, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Nothing to do with the style, but with the individuals and perhaps age. I have had two teachers in Chen style. One emphasized the health, the other was more “eat bitter” type, especially towards young male students.
Since I’m not in my 20s anymore It took me a long while to be able to do the entire long form of Chen style in medium to low posture. I achieved that on my own pace in a process very similar to what you described. But after getting there, I can feel proud of the achievement.
My own motto is that the training should always, at any stage increase the quality of life rather than decrease.
3 Chad // Mar 4, 2008 at 9:03 pm
It’s not really a style thing. The whole “eat biter” thing is misunderstood the world over. There are track coaches that push their kids so hard they puke and say “no pain no gain”.
Eating bitter and training hard have nothing to do with sustaining injuries. So rather than a chen or yang thing, maybe it’s s a maturity thing.
4 YMAA.com // Mar 4, 2008 at 11:29 pm
Yang or Chen aside, this is really more of a mind/body discussion. There is destructive pain, and constructive pain.
Destructive pain happens for instance when your foot is turned in the wrong direction and you’re torquing your knee. That pain is a signal from your body that you are doing damage to your tendons and joint, and to not listen to that signal is foolish. You are not tougher or cooler, you are only damaging your knee.
Constructive pain is when you are in Ma Bu for an hour and your thighs are burning because your using your muscles to their max , which will ultimately strengthen them.
Corrections and adjustments to ANY form in order to protect the joints or slowly improve the strength of weak body parts and develop them gradually are an essential aspect of training any martial art.
5 Jay Gischer // Mar 5, 2008 at 12:09 am
Pain is the body’s way of saying that some feeling is important. So it should never be ignored, it should be understood.
Once it is understood, a response can be made. One response is to keep going, the pain signals something that is actually desirable, or safely ignored. Or, the pain could signal injury. If you injure yourself, no amount of “eating bitter” will get you well, or let you work out with a torn muscle.
I can see why you might call this a Yang vs. Chen thing, but I see it in my jujitsu school, too. In our dojo we emphasize the “Yang” way, though it’s clear that at other schools they do things the “Chen” way. Young males in particular are hard to persuade to sit still and figure out what the pain means.
The worst aspect of this is that some will fetishize pain, showing the attitude of “anything that hurts must be good for me.”
6 wayne hansen // Mar 5, 2008 at 8:11 am
two tai chi maxims come to mind
do not put power into the form,let power arise naturally from the form.
attain skill like adding a piece of paper each day.
eating bitter has nothing to do with physical pain,it is about the mental hardship of persistant and lifelong dedication to the art.
most of these misunderstandings in regard to methods of training come down to the art not being passed on correctly.
style means little, all chinese arts have their own beauty ,unfortunatly not all practicioners and teachers reach a leavel where this beauty endures.
7 Notendo // Mar 5, 2008 at 8:23 am
Kind of a silly way to open what’s transparently a “style vs. style” debate. I practice Chen style and listening to my body is what my practice is all about. I would never hurt myself in my practice; blowing out a knee is not a sign of proper training to me.
If you want to contrast two perspectives on training and associate them with certain styles I suggest quoting qualified representatives of the respective schools, not two quarreling forum posters.
8 Hermann // Mar 5, 2008 at 6:20 pm
It all depends on an individual body and mind, in the above mentioned ranges.
Still, I saw more people get hurt in Chen style than Yang style, as Chen teachers seem to push harder for martial abilities, while Yang teachers tend to emphasise more the health aspects.
9 wujimon // Mar 5, 2008 at 9:21 pm
In my own experience, I was often pushed harder and asked to eat more bitter and go lower and lower in my chen instruction. I attribute it to a quote I heard about chen taiji that went something along the lines of:
“those that drink the water of chenjiagou, their legs will shake.”
On the flip side, in my yang instruction, I often heard more about “needing to relax more”, “if feel pain, stop”, “if sweat too much, using too much energy”, etc etc.
To put a bit of icing on the cake, I have been to a chen taiji seminar in which the participants basically volunteered themselves to be put into postures and hold them until they started shaking and collapsed to the ground due to muscle breakdown. The instructor, senior student, and a majority of the participants seemed to take joy in seeing the agony on the faces of the volunteers. From what I have heard, this is a common occurrence of a leading figure in the style …
10 YMAA.com // Mar 6, 2008 at 6:44 am
One other point of this debate, if we are to continue on the Chen vs Yang angle…
Chen style is pretty intact. It is very martial pretty much where ever you train it. The same basic rules apply to as all martial arts training. Train hard, don’t hurt yourself.
Yang style has been watered down repeatedly. A fair number of practitioners, especially in the Wets, have learned a form with no martial aspects, and the relaxation aspect is emphasized. Often, even the qigong skills that make taijiquan an internal art are entirely neglected as well, so you end up with a feel-good dance.
So, when you want to debate Yang vs Chen, I have to suggest that you be specific when naming your Yang lineage, or else its apples and oranges. Why compare?
Its like comparing Hung Gar and interpretive dance.
11 wayne hansen // Mar 6, 2008 at 12:16 pm
my yang style comes from penang.
dont go there and tell them that yang style is watered down and non martial.
it grew up during the fight for independance when being chinese meant self protection was a pre requesit to good health.
p s this applies to all styles of kung fu in malaysia where yang tai chi held a prominent martial position.
12 Lazy Boxer // Mar 7, 2008 at 9:24 am
I have met too many long-time TCC players with knee damage due to faulty training methods. Decide what you wish to achieve, study hard, keep an open mind, and above all don’t let yourself be bullied.
13 M. Reynolds // Mar 26, 2008 at 12:44 am
My Yang lineage is about as direct as it gets (and I say “my” in the sense of “my boss” or “my father” not as in “my dog” or “my shoes” like some do towards their style) and I can tell you that you have to be strong do to things the Yang way. There’s a strength minimum for even being able to move through the postures as a beginner that if you are not at, practice will push you through it until you are. Also, the postural requirements themselves are demanding just by nature (what with all the leaning.) so knee pain, lower back pain, nasty soreness, etc are kind of part and parcel of the early gig. But they go away once you resolve some strength/channel blockage issues. Then the pain comes from your teacher showing you applications, but thats to be expected. However, people generally DO know when a pain is an injury and speaking as a Chinese medical professional, it’s prudent to listen to your instincts on that matter. However, don’t let that be an excuse for you if you’re really just being a slacker.
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