I came across this some time ago, and I still don’t know what to think about it. This is Silat Mubai as taught in Taizhong, Taiwan. As you can see, this is extremely hard-core stuff. Lots of throat-slashing and organ stabbing going on there. This looks like pure military arts being taught to civilians, and that’s that makes it somewhat controversial. The fact that it’s a Muslim art adds to that in the post 9/11 environment.
There’s certainly no BS involved here. If you can get around the knife work, I think the stick and unarmed applications have quite a bit of use from a self-defense perspective.
Also, the teacher has made it quite clear on message boards that he demands adherence to a strict code of conduct from students. I think that’s the way to go with this kind of training.
I’m curious as to what you guys think of this stuff?
15 responses so far ↓
1 William Acevedo // Jan 4, 2008 at 12:20 am
Dave, I have seen the videos a while ago. It is quiet scary that this kind of stuuf is being taught to easily to pretty much anyone. Hence the need for real control on the students conduct,; there is an instructor I met here in Canada who also does this type of training the CMA way, his teachers were comando instructors in WW2 in China and also has trained with 2 military units of the chinese army, cool stuff too. Cheers
2 darcy // Jan 4, 2008 at 2:32 am
alot of good finishing moves there, all the students have to know is not to go toooo far…
3 Steve Perry // Jan 4, 2008 at 6:48 am
Well, it appears to be fairly-standard pentjak silat material — most silat is based on the blade, and the theory is that what you can do armed, you can alter slightly to do bare.
This vid oesn’t look particularly military to me.
Silat is a big umbrella — hundreds, if not thousands of styles from SE Asia — and many of them have no sporting applications. You don’t crank them up to shadowbox with your brother-in-law at the Christmas party, you keep them in the box until things get really hairy.
If you want to be kind, you can do the sweeps and foot-drags first instead of the strikes, or turn the strikes into pushes or pulls.
A lot of silat looks like overkill, but it is based on the concept that if your Sunday punch doesn’t put the attacker down, as it often won’t, then you have another weapon to back it up, and another after that — as many as you need until one works or you can haul ass, whichever comes first. (If you can get away, you should have done that first. If you cannot, then you want to get done as quickly and as efficiently as possible, with the least amount of damage to yourself as you can manage.)
If your first punch decks the guy, you fold up the rest of them and put them away.
We know that in America, one is only allowed to use as much force as necessary to stop an attack, and not a hair more, but the NRA slogan applies: Better to have it and not need it …
4 Hermann // Jan 4, 2008 at 9:54 am
Yes, I’ve heard, live is one never ending fight, you better be prepared for the worst anytime.
No seriously, I’m not at all into stuff like this. I’m persueing everything else in IMA, but not the immediate kill, sorry. And I also would prefer, if such teaching is not openly spread all over the place.
5 jin // Jan 4, 2008 at 5:50 pm
looks like a modern creation with the name silat tacked on. Doesn’t mean there’s some traditional silat in there, but the knife pattern drills look like pretty standard filipino martial arts.
I’d guess the founder is Indian Muslim (hence the name Mubai aka Mumbai aka Bombay). Out of religious pride I’d guess he tacked on the “silat” name to define his style as a “muslim” art. All this is pure speculation on my part based on a single clip so take my opinion w/ a grain of salt…. I don’t know anyone associated with the art so it’s all pretty much conjecture.
6 Buddy // Jan 4, 2008 at 11:45 pm
Silat doesn’t refer to the Muslim faith. Many practitioners are Christian and Buddhist and others.
7 Steve Perry // Jan 5, 2008 at 1:17 am
Silat, Kali, and other FMA tend to look more alike than they look like karate or kung-fu or TDK. Several of the folks in our silat class came from Kali.
There seems to be connections between SE Asia and the Philippines regarding martial arts, though who did what, when, is open to discussion.
Most of what that vid shows is material I’ve seen in various kinds of silat, so I’d guess that the teacher has a b.g. in the art. Since silat comes from a part of the world where Islam is the prevalent religion, it’s not surprising to see a Muslim practitioner.
Silat is, as I said before, a big tent, and you see a lot of variation even in the forms from one side of Java to the other, and north to south on one coast, much less the Malay or Balinese or other island arts.
Stuff we do is western Javanese, which means it is almost certainly heavily influenced by Tjimande (Cimande), along with pukulan, Betawi, kuntao, and others. We think it is fairly simple — which is not to say “easy,” and it does tend to get to the point quickly. We believe that if you really need a fighting art, it should be one that has enough useful tools to do the job — which job is to be the person who gets to go home, preferably under one’s own power and with all one’s teeth intact.
It isn’t aikido …
8 Scott // Jan 5, 2008 at 3:04 am
Wow, I can’t believe you guys are actually talking about the technique. Have you ever seen authentic Choi LiFut Double Dagger? Put this guy to shame.
I know it’s not always easy to find good demo models, but it’s also not very convincing if you use guys 100lbs lighter than you. That looks like killing for fun, and that’s evil.
News Flash, this is straight up Jihad!
That music in the background is called Kawali music. It was/is used for battlefield conversions! During the day you put your blade to peoples throats and ask them if they want to become a Muslim. If they convert you just kill them. If not you take a body part, say a hand or an ear, and at night you do a mass conversion around the camp fire–dangling all the body parts everyone has collected…and of course sing “love” songs to Allah and, in this case, Ali.
That stuff gives me the “willies.” Can you say “willies?”
9 Dave Chesser // Jan 5, 2008 at 11:04 am
Scott,
I was specifically staying away form that angle with the comments, although that may well be a valid concern. The teacher in the video has had to defend himself on countless message boards and has done an admirable job plus he remained a gentleman to boot. But in the end, it sort of comes down to what you think about this training in the Muslim environment. I’ll leave that to each individual to decide.
On a side note, his website is down and my guess is his school is gone. Perhaps due to pressure. Not sure.
10 jin // Jan 5, 2008 at 11:37 am
Scott,
Are you referring to Qawwali Sufi devotional music from Afgan/Pakistan/Indian area? I’m only familiar with this music thru the beautiful singing of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. I don’t doubt there’s a history of forced conversions in Islam (and every other religion..even Buddhism), but I’m surprised with Qawwali’s connection to modern day forced conversions…any links that provide more info on this? I didn’t see anything from a quick google search.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pencak_Silat_Sharaf
http://www.cogtactical.com/systems.htm
from the wikipedia entry and their own web site it claims to be a modern hybrid system very little info on the founder or his training background.
According to wikipedia the jurus are modern creations of the founder and “unlike other systems it is a totally ambush-oriented curriculum that is military in origin”
Claims of “internationally respected combatives trainer and published author” and “Battle Tested Content” but no information supporting these statements. I’m not saying this isn’t true, just that there was nothing backing these statements.
I’ll just leave it at “not my cup of tea”
11 Scott // Jan 5, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Hi Jin,
I got pretty deep into Indian Culture at one point.
I don’t remember where I first read about Qawalli music, but I mentioned the forced conversion thing to a singer friend of mine who speaks fluent Urdu. He said he used to love Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan until he went to a concert in Berkeley where a big group of Muslims gathered around the stage to throw money. They were chanting in Urdu “Death to the Infidels.”
Dave, I know what you mean, it’s a big can of worms. I might as well add that being gentlemanly and defending Jihad on public forums is part of Jihad. They are the sweetest people, until the knife comes out.
12 Dave Chesser // Jan 5, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Jin,
You found their website! I had the link to an old one, I guess. Thank for that!
13 kenneth fish // Jan 6, 2008 at 2:53 am
A agree with Mr. Perry - from what I can see this is fairly garden variety silat, nothing special. I don’t quite see what makes this a “militarry” art per se, except that the chap teaching is wearing fatigues.
Looking at the question from a different perspective - isn’t the ability to dispatch an attacker quickly what makes a martial art a martial art? As opposed to a martial sport (the object of which is to “tag” a point or blow on a fellow competitor} or a martial arts derived calisthenic?
As for military martial arts - very few people in the military ever get to train “martial arts”. Anyone here remember basic training? Far more important to learn to fire and maintain a weapon, work with the group, endure and so on. A very small fraction of military personnel get to train as SAS or para-recon.
KJF
14 Tim // Jan 6, 2008 at 3:13 am
Dave,
I’m going to restrict my comments to the technical side and not discuss the politics.
It looked like pretty typical silat or FMA basics. Flow drills, no freestyle sparring. What’s shown seems pretty solid technically but not extraordinary. Flow drills and one sided defense drills are not enough to teach someone to fight against a resistant and trained opponent.
Herman,
What do you think all those spear forms are for in xingyi? Or the bagua deerhorn knives? And what do you think happens if you bust out some chen style fajing with a staff on a live opponent?
15 Steve Perry // Jan 7, 2008 at 4:42 am
Tim –
I agree — to get what you need to flow against somebody who isn’t going to do what you want, when you want, you have to do some kind of freestyle dancing.
Sparring is not fighting, either, but it does allow you to learn two things that are hard — if not impossible — to get on your own: Timing and distance against somebody else.
Our silat is a positional art: Like business, the three most important aspects are, location, location, and …
location.
Djurus and compliant drills do sharpen tool-skills, but one needs to learn how to play with others unrehearsed; least, that’s what we believe.
We also believe that a foundation in basic tool-using is useful before setting out to build a house, so we add in the freestyle stuff slowly and carefully. At some point, thought, this has to be done if you are are going to the the experience you need to do the art usefully.
Leave a Comment