http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iibeHPY6yt0
I was discussing which saber is used in Chen style recently: oxtail (niu wei dao) or willowleaf (liu ye dao). I asked because I’m looking to learn taiji saber and I want to buy the right one. Unfortunately, I haven’t found anyone from the village branches that really seems to know that much about swords. So here’s my take on this subject.
Most sword experts that I know of tend to frown on the oxtail saber because of its shape. The liu ye dao (willow leaf) allows for a broader range of technique in fighting because of the shape and the back edge. But this isn’t evident if all people do are forms. Usage will bear this out, though.
The weapons used by Chen village performers seem to be heavily influenced by communist-shaped wushu in that they only seem to use the lightweight fake wushu weapons. The decision was made a long time ago by government wushu committees to use the oxtail saber as the official wushu broadsword and I wonder if the Chen’s simply marched to that tune.
The reason that I bring this up is that doing so-called fajing through the blade, which most Chen village performers that I’ve seen like to do, isn’t possible with non-wushu weaponry. See the clip above.
Simply put, the blade used does matter.
So are the weapons in the clips indicative of what was traditionally used by Chen style taiji before 1949 or is this a modern influence?
From my understanding, the swords in the clip above is not authentic as far as blade flexibility goes (it appears to be a floppy wushu weapon).
Most oxtail and liu ye daos that I’ve been told are authentic are not that flexible. Of course, using fajing in sword fighting is a must and hardly unique to Chen style. But doing fajing through a proper, stiff (not necessarily heavy) blade will NOT produce the flex of the blade in the clip above.
Again, from my understanding, broadsword blades should be stiff and the sword should be around 2 lbs. give or take a few ounces.
And yes, I have trained with such swords. Getting used to the weight is part of the idea.
Taking Wang Xian’s clip above for example, at 1:12 and again at 1:35, he is clearly doing a thrust with the dao. This simply WILL NOT WORK with any blade that has considerable flex, as is shown in the clip. The blade must be stiff in order to thrust. He also does an overhead thrust at 1:25.
I should also point out that thrusts with broadswords, in general, may point to liu ye dao (willowleaf) usage instead of niu wei dao (oxtail). So which bradsword was traditionally used by Chen style taiji before the government started calling the shots?
I think everyone should keep in mind that hand-to-hand combat is not unheard of in China today. There is still considerable unrest in the countryside. The communists have done considerable damage to traditional weapon arts, perhaps to the extent that this knowledge has been lost. Having discussed this topic with some of the most knowledgable village practicioners, I’ve come to the reluctant conclusion that no one knows the answer as to what dao was traditionally used. Most people that I talk to don’t even seem to know the difference.
It seems likely that traditional weapons knowledge is either lost or completely hidden.
BTW, for people new to sword training, I suggest hanging out at Sword Forum’s International’s Chinese Sword Forum. They are a little snobby about using real weapons (moreso than me even) but there is good info on historic swords there.
I’m seeking to learn more about this, so if I’m wrong please correct me. But so far, I’m seeing lots of inauthentic sword work as I understand it, likely stemming from a lack of weapons knowledge.
8 responses so far ↓
1 Hakchigi // Jan 11, 2007 at 8:45 am
I used to study some broadsword, but I’m still no clear of the difference between oxtail (niu wei dao) or willowleaf (liu ye dao).
At any rate the floppy swords seem a little rediculous to me because they are fake but my teacher had a stiffer sword and you could feel the weight.
2 chessman71 // Jan 11, 2007 at 12:57 pm
Hakchigi,
There are lots of differences, both in blade shape and, therefore, in usage. Again, usage really bears this fact out. The shape of the oxtail makes thrusts problematic, so they become a type of “sawing” action with the first third of the blade. Liu ye has a different shape, with a naroower first third near the tip, and usually a backedge. This allows a thrust much like a jian would make.
These differences mean different usages and targets to some extent.
I’ll try to write more posts on this. I know this isn’t clear. Thanks for briging this out.
3 Chad // Jan 11, 2007 at 1:21 pm
I’ll look this up again, but if memory serves; I think the majority of late ching dao pieces are of the willow leaf variety. The ox tail from my uderstanding was the general catchall sidearm for guards and infantry. You are correct though, the ox tail was not intented as a trusting weapon. It is entirely cut. Also, the historical speciemens that I have seen of the ox tail were considerably shorter than most calvery sabers of the north steps (from which the dao originated). This would make sense because they were intended for close combat were cutting and slicing would be far more advantagous than thrusting.
4 Nikwdhmos // Jan 12, 2007 at 2:17 am
Just for my own clarification — from the pics I searched on the internet, the Liu Ye Dao (Willow Leaf Knife) looks a little bit like a western cavalry saber, and the Niu Wei Dao (Ox Tail Knife) is the classic broadsword we see in most movies and wushu forms.
Is this correct?
Also, I have seen some Kung Fu people use a sword that looks like a classic butterfly knife, just bigger — a wide, straight blade with no curve. What is this sword called?
5 Chad // Jan 12, 2007 at 5:13 am
Correction: it was the willowleaf that was the standard side arm of the Qing Military. The ox tail was used exclusively by cilivilians and was never a military weapon.
Nik: The sword you are seeing in modern Wushu is probally a Nan Dao (southern saber). They are usually shorter, with a double swept hilt single edged and straight with a ring pomel. Other than butterfly knives, i have had no luck in finding a historical piece of this design (if anyone has a pic of one I would love to see it!)
You are right about the ox tail and Willow leaf. There is a third kind that was very popular for higher officials and military officers called the Goose quill saber. It is mor elike the willowleaf but is straight through the length of the blade until a curve in the distal taper.
If anyone hasn’t already seen it, this is a great website for chinese swords: http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/
6 eduardo // Jan 22, 2007 at 7:44 pm
Hey,
My teacher (from the Chen clan) practices Guandao dayly with an all-iron, 17 pound weapon. Comletely hard, not flexible at all.
All the best
7 Formosa Neijia - Exploring Taiwan’s Martial Arts » Chen style as external pt.3 // Mar 6, 2007 at 7:34 am
[…] to using wushu weight weapons instead of traditional weapons. This has been going on so long that no one seems to even know what type of saber the Chen family used for their training before 1949. The oxtail saber was selected by the […]
8 CS Zeng // Jul 9, 2007 at 8:50 pm
The oxtail sabre is actually less than 200 years old. However, because we see it on TV and people practise form with it, we get the impression that it is the main type. Because of this, a lot of things on TV and in movies are actually inaccurate. A lot of kung fu instructors don’t know this either.
The willow leaf sabre (narrow/slight curve) and the goose feather sabre (narrow/straight blade) were both common prior to the end of the Manchu Dynasty. However, these were army issue weapons and the oxtail is actually a “civilian” weapon. If you look at old books and pictures, you will not find any sign of an oxtail sabre.
The Chen clan would have used sabres that were anywhere between willow leaf or goose feather patterns. In those days, you would go to a blacksmith and commission weapons of your own choice, design and preference. The truth is that real swords and sabres were very much solid and not whippy like modern wushu blades. The latter is preferred to create drama and have little or no use in actual combat. So basically, you won’t be able to have an authentic sabre for your Chen style.
The Yang clan have a yang style sabre. This is a narrow curved blade, a bit like that of Japanese katanas. The idea is probably not original, but taken from previous variations of narrow curved sabres. I know this style of sabre is available in some martial arts stores.
I do know that the Chen clan have also had smiths make that style of sabre and named a “Chen style sabre”. I don’t know the difference in terms how how they handle. The only difference is mainly cosmetic and name is largely about marketing. I have a Yang sabre and it is much nicer to handle than a normal oxtail.
Oxtails are probably more suitable for Shaolin sabre forms than Tai Chi. Nan Dao or Southern sabre is something else. The military have many varieties of weapons. What is issued for parades is not what they use in combat. Hence there are so many types and varieties of swords and sabres.
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