http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIYQqRHAPUc
This gives my last post some support. Here is a version of Han’s Yang style taiji. Right away, you’ll notice the very strong forward lean. And yes, the butt sticks out a bit because the torso is in a straight line with the back leg. I don’t much care for his hand methods in this clip, but the stances look good and the body mechanics look okay to me.
My Chen teacher in the last post has also studied this method of Yang style from his long fist teacher, and I don’t doubt for an instant that this taiji has had an influence on him. Some of the sequences are very, very similar.
That said, this version of Yang style is not that far off from the older style of Yang shown by Yang Shou-hou here. People often forget that the old way of doing Yang looked more like this clip — with a strong forward lean and different body mechanics than shown by certain branches of the modern Yang family.
13 responses so far ↓
1 Ed // Nov 6, 2007 at 1:28 pm
Actually, this is an interesting topic for me - were “old Yang” taiji styles butt-in or butt-out?
The thing is, I get contradicting testimony from different sources - so I have to say it’s hard to say as yet. It does seem that the “old Yang” as practiced in Taiwan tends to be butt-out, but there are others in Mainland China that seem to be the other way. In any case, I have to say that Chinese tend not to be “preservers” in that they are not sticklers for preserving something just because (as the Japanese are prone to do); sometimes they will change something for what seems like a flippant reason to us (like, to match what others are doing, or because it looks better).
Perhaps comparing with some Mainland examples will be fun, but because of the above reasons… It might not change much for us.
2 Buddy // Nov 6, 2007 at 9:56 pm
Shoot, now the original vid is gone.
3 Scott // Nov 7, 2007 at 1:30 am
I say the way to measure correct movement is that it leads to perfect freedom, it leads to total embodiment. Tail froward, tail back; different functions, different ideas. What matters is what it produces.
It looks to me like at some stage, people training backwards to perfect freedom– might want to train like the guy in the video. But if looking like that guy is the end result than something is seriously flawed.
4 Casey // Nov 7, 2007 at 2:44 am
What about this performance as “end result” is seriously flawed? It looks good to me. Of course, actual application won’t look exactly like this, but as a form, it looks great. Appears to be working good stances, body mechanics, rotation, transition, etc.
5 Dave Chesser // Nov 7, 2007 at 9:20 am
Scott,
i’m not sure that what is shown is supposed to be the “end result.” My experience with doing postures like this in two completely different groups is that this is a training method — and one that I felt extremely comfortable dropping when the time came.
It’s used to build structure in the body, mainly for beginners. It also ensures a nice forward energy to the style.
Having said that, this version goes to some extremes. His butt is a bit too far out IMO especially in white crane and a few other places. His hand methods should be long to match the stances but they come up really short in brush knee and several other places.
The main flaw of this training is the amazing amount of lower back tension that it generates. From my experience, it’s very difficult getting people to let go of that back tension and move to a more up-right position that facilitates movement in all directions.
6 scott // Nov 8, 2007 at 8:31 am
Yes, that is what I meant. I went through a stage of practice where I spontaneously felt that I should have my tail-bone pointed backwards. It felt very free. Eventually “something” resolved and I went back to sinking the tail-bone.
In terms of application, moving the tail-bone back is used for getting underneath someone for a throw when they are against your body (side and back).
When I thought about it later the postures of your teacher in the previous post are simular to the Baji I used to watch Adam Hsu’s students doing all the time. Their yi was somewhat focused on the idea of using crushing power on the opponent (two or more directions of force coming towards each other with the opponent in between.)
7 Dave Chesser // Nov 8, 2007 at 9:22 am
Scott,
i agree. Moving the tailbone back is very important for some applications. I myself tend to stay more upright with some forward lean and a mobile (I hope) pelvis. I tuck when needed but otherwise stay untucked. But not tail out.
My Chen teacher did baji from two different groups and is a mantis and long fist specialist.
8 Bob // Nov 8, 2007 at 10:39 am
I am not sure how to approach this but I have Han Qing Tang’s daughter perform 2/3 of the Yang style form at a demonstration at MIT held around 1980 or so.
I apologize for not having access to the clp but if you believe me I will tell that her performance does not exhibit the same flavor as the above clip. The above clip seems to have a lot of personalization in the postures.
Ling Ling, I believe her name to be, is married to Dr. Leung who was Liu Yun Qiao’s first and most powerful [in terms of baji] student.
Her performance of the Yang style taijiquan was pretty much in line with the standard Yang Cheng Fu flavor except she did it a more quicker pace—I think the old Yang video by Dr. Yang Jwing Ming better captures what she looks like—not perfectly though.
This clip just doesn’t reflect what I saw in her performance.
9 Herb Rich // Nov 9, 2007 at 1:23 am
I learned the long Yang form from her husband- who learned it from Han- in ‘82. It was substantially different from the clip shown.
10 Robert A. Figler // Nov 9, 2007 at 1:36 am
Hey Rich, you are in the clip I am talking about too.
11 Dave Chesser // Nov 9, 2007 at 9:49 am
Herb and Bob,
What you guys are saying doesn’t really surprise me. My guess is that the main group from Han’s lineage is taking that material and running with it a bit. I have a clip somewhere of one of their people doing an extremely flashy version. All he needed was a sombrero and I would have thought he was doing Mexican/Spanish dancing.
Just curious, did what you guys saw/learned look anything more like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_QzP9eGrpI
12 Robert A. Figler // Nov 9, 2007 at 11:07 am
Dave:
I haven’t seen the clip for sometime but if I recall correctly it followed the same sequence as the standard Yang Cheng Fu form. Herb might have a better feel for this since he learned it but the shen fa in the clip, i.e. body movement, does not look like the way she did it–the clip just exhibits a lot of this wavy-like noodle movement and I don’t recall that being a part of her flavor. I might classify her movement a bit more fluid than say Fu Zhong Wen but far closer to his flavor than what I see in the clip.
Maybe the movement in the clip is something I probably don’t understand very well.
I’ll see if I can watch it in a couple of days and let you know.
What I recall is that her form was typical Yang Cheng Fu—not a thing wrong with it but nothing like I am seeing in the clips.
I am trying very hard to remain neutral here.
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