http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzIjUR-mHCY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFijeHmOPlQ
My guess is that everyone is very familiar with these clips since they were some of the first to show a more advanced or fake version of taiji depending on your perspective (perhaps there’s a range between those two extremes?). In any case, this is Shi Ming — the now deceased teacher who introduced Bill Moyers to qi and its uses.
I’m putting these here because I want to study them from time to time to see if some of the stuff he’s doing makes more sense to me as I continue to train. The first clip is fairly solid. I can see most all of that working. The second clip strains credulity a bit. Okay, actually a lot. But maybe I’ll change my mind one day as I have about a lot of other things lately.
13 responses so far ↓
1 Hermann // Oct 29, 2007 at 4:38 pm
Yeah, there just was a hot discussion over on a German forum on a vid of Huang Xingxian, the Malaysian white crane/Zheng Manqing Master, who did same thing.
Tenor was, it`s all fake, with brain washed students, who treat him like a saint.
I myself saw Huang twice. One time, some young student hit the Master off a chair, suggesting this student was not cooperative.
A second time, he vistited my Master and I got a chance to touch hands. Result: I never got a hand on him, either he was gone where I was aiming, or he was as big and as heavy as a mountain and I couldn’t move him.
Watching the vids makes me intellectually still think it`s cooperation, but then I remember the embarrasing encounters with Master Huang, which I only slowly learn to unravel with more experience in pushing hands. Just this morning I learned a little more how not to wast one’s energy in the first minute. My suggestion is: Without direct and personal experience one should not judge! After many years the whole thing still amazes me.
2 silkreeling // Oct 30, 2007 at 11:15 am
shi ming has written a book called “mind over matter” and it is a very hard read as it tries to convey the theories of how all these work.
Interesting that he was Wang Yong Quan’s student.
3 taijiquestion // Oct 30, 2007 at 11:33 am
I’ll second that about the book.
I found it kind of inspiring… since the constant drumbeat was “Mind-based super-subtle martial arts works, it’s real, maybe you could even learn how someday, good luck my friends”. And the overall tone was quite modern, erudite, and scientific-sounding.
I read it once more or less completely, and to my recollection I located exactly zero info about how one might work on these matters. (Except of course seek out the teacher(s), which is always smart option #1 for any such endeavor.)
By comparison, “The Art of Effortless Power” by Peter Ralston, was a clear, fruitful read. (Just kidding.) Actually Ralston’s newest book “Zen Body-being” is pretty accessible.
Sorry to get a bit off-topic. I was just interested to see Shi Ming come up at all as you don’t hear the name often. (Although I gather he created quite a stir in years past.)
4 Dave Chesser // Oct 30, 2007 at 2:04 pm
I had the book many years ago and didn’t get a bit of it. I went back yesterday and read some of it, and an awful lot of what he said jives with my recent experiences. I’ll probably order the book.
Some of what is shown in the vids, and the whole second one, strains my BS meter. Even with access to your qi, I just don’t see how that is possible without cooperation.
5 Buddy // Oct 30, 2007 at 9:05 pm
Andrew confirmed to me this opinion, Dave.
6 Patrick Parker // Oct 31, 2007 at 6:07 am
The standard disclaimer applies: I could be completely wrong - but…
Involuntary motion has a wholly different character to it than does voluntary motion. The motion of the students in the second film is voluntary. They are doing this behavior. It does not look like an involuntary motion (like a reflex, for instance)
7 thomas // Oct 31, 2007 at 7:27 am
Shi Ming co-wrote the book in Chinese, and it was translated into English by Thomas Cleary, who, although very accomplished in east Asian languages, did not train in Chinese IMAs and may not have possessed the foundational understanding prerequisite to doing an accurate and clear translation of subtle and obscure ideas. So, whatever opacity the translated text has, Shi Ming was only one of three contributors to the final product.
Shi Ming may have briefly and nominally been a student of Wang Yongquan, but was more involved with Wei Shuren. Shi also studied Wu (Quan Yu and Jianquan, not sure which line) taijiquan as well as other practices that entered into the development of his “Ruyi” taijiquan.
My understanding from talking with a couple of students of Wei Shuren’s is that lin kong jin is not a part of Wei Shuren’s (or Wang Yong Quan’s) teaching. FWIW, I find the video clips of Wei Shuren extant on Youtube to be more credible than the Shi Ming clips posted here.
8 Dave Chesser // Oct 31, 2007 at 7:37 am
Good comments.
Buddy, you mean Andrew, the guy in the vid? Excellent. What else did he have to say about the training?
9 silkreeling // Oct 31, 2007 at 12:14 pm
lin kong jin is not part of wang yong quan teaching. that’s why it is interesting to see shi ming exhibit it.
I’ve seen traces of lin kong jin on youtube from students of the dong yin jie and Wu jian quan lineages.
if you fancy Wei shuren’s clip, check out zhu datong on youtube, who is doing his part to demystify high level skills.
10 Buddy // Oct 31, 2007 at 8:46 pm
Yeah, that Andrew. I met him at a Xie Pei Qi workshop. He confirmed my opinion of the whole episode. I don’t want to say too much in public but I think you can guess the rest.
11 taijiquestion // Nov 1, 2007 at 11:41 am
Thanks for mentioning Zhu Datong, Silkreeling. I had seen a very intriquing clip of him here: http://neigong.net/2007/07/23/the-sung-of-zhu-datong/
I was interested to see this crazy kind of fajing and also that someone had titled it “The Sung of Zhu Datong”. So I made the comment that I still hope someone can answer a little bit: Why “sung”, in particular?
12 Dave Chesser // Nov 1, 2007 at 4:11 pm
Taijiquestion,
They call the post and the clip that because Zhu keeps saying over and over again that song — relaxation — is what enables him to move the student so many times.
I’ve watched many of his clips on youtube and I’m very un-impressed. Many of his students were practically throwing themselves down. He didn’t even have to touch them. Sometimes they had so off-balanced themselves that they would have fallen anyway, whether he was there or not.
13 silkreeling // Nov 1, 2007 at 4:50 pm
Really, that’s interesting, becos i have not detected that.
I think the off-balancing might be off-rooting in progress.
All the clips i have seen are ones with the students in clearly advantages positions.
it’s a blessing if you have met a master with such skills. No need to struggle and he can send you off on a cloud.
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