There seems to be some confusion in certain circles about peng the jin and peng the posture. Both can be translated as “wardoff.”There are eight basic jins (powers, skills) in Yang style taiji, with peng being the first and arguably the most important. Peng jin is a quality that all your moves should have. You want to be able to wardoff a push or un-balancing move *to some extent* with pengjin. I think most people are familiar with this concept.
But there is also a definite move/posture-technique called peng (wardoff) in the Yang form. It’s found at the beginning of grasp the bird’s tail. I mentioned this in my previous post on moving push hands. This technique of peng generally comes in two outward varieties: more horizontal and more diagonal.
This is Yang Zhen-duo doing the peng posture. Notice that while his elbow is lower than his wrist, the forearm is basically level with the ground. Yes, there is a slight angle there, but it’s fairly flat. This is what I’m calling the more horizontal peng.
Here’s Chen Yun-ching doing his father’s taiji (Chen Pan-ling) and he’s also in the peng position found in grasp the bird’s tail. Notice the fully diagonal position of the forearm, with the elbow dropped and behind the wrist. This is what I’m referring to as diagonal peng. This is one difference between CPL taiji and Yang style — CPL’s peng is clearly diagonal when executed.
What I’m arguing is that the more diagonal peng is better because it acts as a bridge — something sorely lacking in some taiji circles. How to cross the gap with taiji isn’t very clear sometimes. Diagonal peng (not the more horizontal) is one of the main ways to do it with Yang taiji. See here:
This is the opening move of the clip I posted yesterday. Notice that they join hands by bridging the gap with diagonal peng. Notice the position of the elbow is exactly the same as Chen Yun-ching’s, but not Yang Zhen-duo’s. The elbow is down, protecting it from being controlled as easily as the horizontal version, and protecting the ribs and head. The horizontal version extends the elbow out so it’s flat, or nearly so, with the wrist. This allows your opponent to more easily control your wrist and elbow all in one move. It’s the perfect position for him-her to do qinna on you or to gain control of your body. The ribs and head are also exposed.
Naturally, wushu taiji has the worst expression with a totally flat peng:
Notice that this horizontal peng doesn’t protect you from horizontal attacks. A horizontal taiji attack like high pat on horse can’t be countered with this horizontal peng. The reason is that they’re both horizontal — there’s no cross made by meeting technique with technique. You usually need a vertical diagonal response to meet a horizontal attack. The diagonal peng protects you in both the horizontal and vertical planes of motion, which is why it’s a good bridge. Horizontal peng allows the enemy to slip in and attack the ribs or head with elbow (ZHOU) fairly easily.
This technique from the clip yesterday shows how the vertical and horizontal forces present in the diagonal peng are combined in a technique:
This from the clip near the end. The teacher’s peng is about to change over into rollback or LU and pull the student down. Notice the strong diagonal flavor. It’s a powerful move because he has the combined horizontal and vertical energies at his disposal with the elbow down to protect his ribs and head. The horizontal power of the waist is combined with the vertical power of the back in this move.
I hope the difference between peng jin and peng the technique is clear. Also, the advantages of diagonal vs. horizontal peng should now be clearer.
21 responses so far ↓
1 wujimon // Aug 31, 2007 at 8:29 pm
Wow, FN! Great post outlining the various flavors of peng as well as some pros and cons. Personally, my own yang my peng is like a mix of YZD and CYC.
I just don’t feel as strong when there’s a huge angle in the posture so prefer the middle ground
2 chessman71 // Aug 31, 2007 at 11:23 pm
Glad you enjoyed it!
3 thomas // Sep 1, 2007 at 4:07 am
The diagonal makes sense, but (as has been pointed out) is not in the most widely-taught (per)versions of Yang taijiquan.
Cf. the circling motions in the Hao Shao-ru moving-step tuishou clip you reference in another post:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Num-zFlfY4&eurl=
Use of the diagonal in Wu/Hao:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zLaSWJgsERk
(taught by Zhai Weichuan)
Or peng in Wu Jianquan taolu (demonstrated by Wu Yinghua, Jianquan’s daughter, in first 25 seconds of clip):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y18sTuexaTo
Wang Peisheng demonstrating from “northern” Wu style (early part of the clip):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XYZ5tk_NlaY
4 Chris @ Martial Development // Sep 1, 2007 at 4:24 am
It seems to me that you are using Karate standards to judge Taiji form postures.
5 chessman71 // Sep 1, 2007 at 8:50 am
Thomas,
From what I can tell, most everyone uses he diagonal peng in PH, but only a few of us explicitly train it in the form. Thanks for the clips, those are great. I’m loving both the Wu styles lately.
Chris,
Can I roll my eyes now?
Fine. I’ll take the bait. Can you at least explain what you mean?
6 renli // Sep 1, 2007 at 1:00 pm
I don’t think it matters as much if the posture is horizontal or vertical.
7 renli // Sep 1, 2007 at 1:00 pm
i mean horizontal or diagonal
(or vertical, actually)
8 chessman71 // Sep 1, 2007 at 2:17 pm
Why not? I listed several reasons why it does matter in the post. Just curious.
9 renli // Sep 1, 2007 at 7:38 pm
I don’t think it matters because as long as the jing itself is present, it would naturally be adjusted to the situation. The form itself isn’t really how you would perform an application, exactly, anyways. A good example is how a lot of silk reeling-style movements are not shown in yang style, yet the energy is supposed to still be present. So the physical form of the movement has some “room” for variance, as long as the jings are being trained (as long as yuan qi isn’t interrupted, right?
)
10 renli // Sep 1, 2007 at 7:40 pm
Now, if you wanted to argue that a certain physical frame wasn’t as effective or as efficient at training jings, or that it somehow would restrict qi flow in certain situations or whatever, then I believe that could translate very well into a discussion of how the jing could not be used. In particular I think it’s obvious that the wushu guy might need to make a few adjustments
11 chessman71 // Sep 1, 2007 at 11:04 pm
Perhaps, but jins aren’t everything. Sometimes the shape it takes is more important. I believe the diagonal peng is more efficient for application.
12 scott // Sep 2, 2007 at 5:25 am
Hmmm, I believe this may just be a matter of what order certain principles are trained.
It seems to me that you train structure, period. Some structures are better than others.
You train application so that you have the correct Yi.
You train various types of jin so that you can instantaneously transition from one to another appropriately.
When you have all that, then your structure can change. You can move into positions which are structurally weaker, yet unbroken so they are still capable of issuing full power, taking total control.
Then you just hang. Keep simplifying. Disappear. Become potential. Merge. All this ever leads to is more intimacy.
Why do you need the bridge metaphor to fit into this scheme?
13 chessman71 // Sep 2, 2007 at 8:16 am
“Why do you need the bridge metaphor to fit into this scheme?”
Simple: because you must have a safe and efficient way to cross the gap between you and the opponent. If you don’t have that, you’re at a distinct disadvantage. Contact has to be initiated. When it is, it’s best to be in a good position.
14 Scott // Sep 2, 2007 at 10:05 am
This is why I wrote a blog on the bridge metaphor a couple of days ago, I really don’t understand its importance.
Are you are saying a bridge is a “fake” with somekind of a set-up. Perhaps a fake with some sensitivity and/or power, and multiple set-up options?
15 chessman71 // Sep 2, 2007 at 10:48 am
You stand in one place and the opponent stands in the other across from you. How do you BRIDGE the distance between him and you in a safe and efficient way that allows you to employ your martial arts techniques? This is the bridge.
Unless, you’re fighting your Siamese twin, you’re going to need to close that gap of space.
The idea of just moving in with punches and kicks works sometimes and not so well other times.
The bridge is a set-up of sorts that also acts as a defense. From that bridge, you should be able to do all your techniques.
Some taiji techniques can be used in this manner, with some being better than others. The PENG that I’ve laid out in this post is probably the best bridge taiji can offer.
16 GrahamB // Sep 2, 2007 at 4:27 pm
“Perhaps, but jins aren’t everything. Sometimes the shape it takes is more important. I believe the diagonal peng is more efficient for application.”
But of course, it depends what application.
For example, a flat ‘peng shape’ is better for an arm bar than a diagonal one. Which means that the most martial style you mention in this post is….. wu shu Tai Chi
All I see here is a limited understanding of the whole subject. How on earth doing a diagonal peng in a solo form against thin air makes you a better fighter (or more practical?) than a person doing a flat peng in a solo form against no opponent…. I find a bit odd… it all depends what application you are imagining while doing the form.
17 chessman71 // Sep 2, 2007 at 5:05 pm
“All I see here is a limited understanding of the whole subject. How on earth doing a diagonal peng in a solo form against thin air makes you a better fighter (or more practical?) than a person doing a flat peng in a solo form against no opponent…. I find a bit odd…”
And how did you completely miss me saying that this is done extensively in push hands and as a BRIDGE in fighting?
I never said it was simply to be done in the form. I even provided a vid clip showing EXACTLY how it’s applied in push hands. I can’t be much clearer than that.
And BTW, we use a vertical peng to armbar in my style, not a horizontal one.
18 GrahamB // Sep 3, 2007 at 3:29 am
You appear to have missed what I’m saying. Explaining is just going to be too painful. Keep going and good luck.
19 FrancoisB // Sep 5, 2007 at 11:05 pm
Hello all,
I’ve been reading the blog for a while now and I feel I should put in my two cents on this. From my experience, coming from Long Fist, Wing Chun and Tai chi, I can definitely say that if have the silly idea of facing someone with decent ability with an horizontal peng, meaning with elbow and forearm on the same line, you are going to get your whole arm controlled easily.
In the event that you get your elbow controlled, you need to be able to pull it inwards toward your chest center line(while keeping you peng structure) to break free. If your peng is horizontal, you won’t be able to pull your elbow in quickly enough and your opponent will lock your arm and throw you or strike you into tomorrow.
As far as bridging is concerned, a diagonal peng also does the job better because it offers better protection for your chest area and better penetration inside the opponent’s guard. I mean, in a push hands contest, an horizontal peng can theoretically work pretty well, but if you’re trying to use that in a real fight, once again it’s not gonna work unless your opponent doesn’t know how to fight close range.
20 chessman71 // Sep 6, 2007 at 9:17 am
FrancoisB,
Yep, you got it.
21 wayne hansen // Jan 24, 2008 at 8:20 am
as i understand the 4 postures and the 4 jings,the postures are means to understand the jings.fingers pointing to the moon.the 4 jings can also be called listen[wo] neutralise[rb]follow[press] and attack[push].if you examine every posture in your form you will see variations of these postures,jings and energies hidden within.start with single whip it is the most obvious.likewise the 4 corner teq. are but variations of the basic 4 used fron a side or infreior position.get out of jail free cards.examine gst and sw as heaven and earth variations of the same teq.i may be wrong but forgive a simple mind.
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