Continuing with this post (see part one here), here’s part two:
The man in the suitcase is an example of the difference between classic Hatha yoga and chi gung. Many of the chi gung people don’t have anywhere near the flexibility that Hatha yogis have. Most can’t put both legs behind their heads, can’t lie on their stomachs and put one hand in the middle of their bellies with their other hand behind them with their legs in a full lotus and their body completely parallel to the ground, suspended off the ground. They can’t do things like that, but they can be as healthy, have as much energy and be very relaxed.
China has a history of circus and acrobats where 12-year olds can do every physical posture Iyengar can do, and yet it’s just a fact that they got them young and when their fibers could stretch. The Chinese do not consider them in any shape, matter or form to be Chi masters–they’re just considered to be extremely good physical specimens.
TAO yoga is a great way to increase your flexibility and your range of motion when doing chi gung. Many people who do chi gung start out stiff and rigid. TAO Yoga is the ideal complement to chi gung because it stretches you out in a conscious way. It focuses your awareness on allowing chi to flow, saturating your body with chi, or what is called “making your body wet” in the east. Just as with chi gung, you’re locating energetic holes and kinks and then releasing them.
There is a difference between something happening inside you–a flow of energy occurring inside you–and what the outside of your body can do. They don’t always go together. TAO yoga is working to get that internal flow inside your body while you’re doing Hatha yoga postures.
You may not want to check out TAO YOGA with the goal of putting yourself in a suitcase in order to pay your rent, but you can dramatically shorten the time it takes to learn chi gung by integrating the principles of TAO yoga into your practice.
I really enjoy BKF’s writing on this stuff. He is extremely knowledgeable and experienced. Some people don’t like him, but I think a lot of people are jealous and feel threatened by him. Others have been stung by the things he has said, and he has upset a few apple carts. Gee, we wouldn’t want to rock the boat, would we?:)
But here, it doesn’t really seem to me that he’s hit the nail on the head. I think yoga can have two problems when compared to IMA.
One, IMAs are comprised of open and close movements — not just the “open up” movements of some yoga systems. Sometimes the flexibility part gets emphasized over strength because that’s what people think of when they think of yoga. Because of that focus, some yoga people (especially the advanced ones) can have a hard time coordinating their movements. They can be jerky and uncoordinated. Their bodies are too far in one extreme; they can’t easily operate in an open-close fashion.
Second, yoga is a static practice, IMA a dynamic one. Skill in static practices doesn’t necessarily translate into dynamic. In fact, I would argue that it rarely does. if you want skill in both, you usually have to practice both.
But the really interesting thing about all this is WHY BKF may be putting this stuff out now. Think about it for a minute: he’s not exactly in top shape physically right now.
I was looking around the web for reviews of Scott Sonnon’s material — especially his prasara yoga — and I kep getting lots of hits for the TaoBums forum. This is a website dedicated to taoism, yoga, meditation, etc. and lots of the people there seem to be into BKF’s stuff. But funny thing is, they also seem to love Sonnon’s work as well — particularly his prasara yoga work.
So here’s my theory — BKF’s new yoga stuff is a response to Scott Sonnon’s muscling in on what BKF sees as “his” turf. I think thta’s why this stuff is coming out. Furthermore, I think that BKF’s little critique of this yoga teacher above is actually a veiled attack on Sonnon. The bit about how you cab be tense and yet flexible strikes me as weird. It’s likely a veiled reference to Sonnon, who is known for his circular strength training via clubbells.
Look for more on Scott Sonnon very soon.
19 responses so far ↓
1 JessO // Jun 12, 2007 at 1:19 am
Dave, Kumar hasn’t got a clue about Sonnon. He has been talking about this stuff for ages, and is NOT up to date on new trends in the MA world. So I think you are a bit off track here. Kumar has his own thing going on, and this is not a veiled attack on anyone. He has a critique of Indian yoga that he’s been putting out for many years. This is a continuation of that, and of his obsession with relaxing the nervous system.
-Jess O
2 Chris @ Martial Development // Jun 12, 2007 at 3:28 am
I agree with Jess. BKF is a professional. There is lots of money in yoga and qigong, whereas nobody outside of martial arts knows or cares about Scott Sonnon; he is hardly worth debunking from a business perspective.
3 tim fong // Jun 12, 2007 at 3:50 am
Dave,
Hatha yoga does have movement. Ashtanga, for example works through the Sun Salutations dynamically.
4 james // Jun 12, 2007 at 5:02 am
ha Chessman, at last something I know more than you about
(well kind of). Yoga was my way into IMA and I have been doing it for years.
“yoga is a static practice, IMA a dynamic one. Skill in static practices doesn’t necessarily translate into dynamic.”
You are quite right, and astanga is not really a counterexample (I practiced it seriously for a year). What was interesting for me was, when i was learning Xingyi, the spiral movements we use in yoga when standing in order to stay in one place (though this is not your gym yoga stuff) is much the same as the way you generate power to move in xingyi. Sorry, that´s not clear I know, but I never got the xingyi thing well enough to put it better.
5 james // Jun 12, 2007 at 6:33 am
BTW please someone tell me that wikipedia is wrong when it says
“Sonnon also founded his own style of yoga which combines Cossack dancing, gymnastics, break-dancing called Prasara yoga”
looks for eye roll emoticon…
6 chessman71 // Jun 12, 2007 at 7:51 am
First of all, the taobum forum is filled with guys who are practicing BKF’s and Sonnon’s stuff. From reading all those threads, it’s no stretch that BKF has decided that now is the time to release his “qi yoga.”
Tim,
As James said, that isn’t really a counter example, especially given the context of above in BKF’s story.
James,
I think the Wiki page is a bit off. It’s more Eastern European sports theory/movement for grappling in a yoga format. I just got the first DVD and I love it. Look for a review soon.
7 james // Jun 12, 2007 at 11:11 pm
Ok, so it´s another kind of yoga flavored conditioning… that´s fine, but I suspect that a lot of the stuff that I found transfering across to IMA is not in it.
Witht he anti “indian” yoga, what does he actually mean, because has a large number of different asana schools. Or just “all of them”,in hte way that “all” IMA are no good for fighting (exits stage left, in fake coughing fit).
8 Casey // Jun 12, 2007 at 11:21 pm
Flexibility and energy flow are intimately linked, though it’s true they’re not the same thing. The better you are at one, the easier it is to get good at the other. The YJJ Qigong Zhou Laoshi teaches involves a lot of stretching and I don’t think it would be nearly as effective without it.
As for Yoga, well they may not be as coordinated as IMA people, but that’s cuz Yoga’s not a martial art. However, if they’re really flexible but with poor internal circulation, then I’d say they’re not really do ing good Yoga. Yoga is supposed to include breathing exercises, meditation and so on to help accomplish the goals of opening up the energy pathways. Since the ultimate goal of Yoga is to reach a higher level of consciousness, and because a lot of stretching alone certainly doesn’t affect your mind like moving energy can, complete Yoga must include the pranayama, meditation, etc. to get the internal circulation.
I think BKF is probably very good and this may well be a very good idea. Still, I do also feel this is maybe going a little commercial, like “Yogalates” or something (everyone’s heard of Yoga, few have heard of Qigong, so if you repackage your qigong as “yoga” it may attract greater interest…) Interestingly enough, though he may be heralding it as a new innovation, by adding a lot of stretching to “Daoist School” qigong of Taiji, Bagua, etc. the result may end up being similar to the “Buddhist School” qigong like YJJ.
9 james // Jun 13, 2007 at 3:24 am
I´ve been thinking about the posts a bit. Frantzis is creating straw men (or perhaps that should be rubber men) with the goal of pushing his own stuff, that is clear enough. He doesn´t seem to know a great deal about yoga beyond the “circus tricks”, or more likely it´s not convenient for him to say that the yoga tradition can do the energy work as well as qigong if done properly. No mention of kundalini yoga for example, which is just one school focused on energy, or Sivananda which likewise has the goal of moving energy up and down the chakras (I practiced it a few times with a private teacher but I don´t get on very well with the sequence).
I have to tell that many yoga people don´t have the flexibility that Frantzis´s “yoga people” have. And when he says “TAO yoga is working to get that internal flow inside your body while you’re doing Hatha yoga postures.” That is what ALL proper Indian yoga does, and what my asana practice has been focused on. Actually that was the link that brought me to IMA as most western yoga teachers are not into this part of the tradition. Casey is totally right “if they’re really flexible but with poor internal circulation, then I’d say they’re not really doing good Yoga”
Now to turn to the Chessman´s comments (BTW I like you a lot and wish you´d move here to Chile and teach me IMA), but you seem to generalize from what “some” yoga systems do to the whole of yoga. I have to say that I don´t know any yoga people who conform to your projections (but it is only “some” after all). The rubber man part is a very minor part of the yoga tradition, and really not what it´s about at all. Note, there is no mention of pranayama.
Loving your blog
10 JessO // Jun 13, 2007 at 4:09 am
“james”,
Kumar studied in India quite intensively for over two years, back in the day. He is very familiar with the varietys of yoga, and is an accomplished yogi.
He saw however, that many people were stuck on the contortions and difficult postures, and were forcing their tissues in painful ways. He felt that the deeper essence of yoga is similar to his idea of Chinese nei gung - use relaxation and releasing of nervous system blockages to help your body open itself up.
You should look at some of his books for a more in depth examination of his critique of yoga.
-Jess O
11 james // Jun 13, 2007 at 4:30 am
Dear “Jess O” (though I´m not sure why we´re using quotation marks)
I´ve read 3 or 4 of BKF´s books and like his take on IMA, and I know that he studied in India, but it frankly just doesn´t show in his article, which presents one example and then generalises to the whole tradition on the basis of it, excluding all the material which would invalidate his conclusion. I don´t mean to sound harsh; that is simply what the article does. Sure people do get stuck on the externals. The response is surely to do it right.
12 chessman71 // Jun 13, 2007 at 6:41 am
James,
I often talk in generalities because it’s a blog. I have to make points fairly broadly and boldly so we can have a conversation with all the various people that read the blog. So naturally, I generalize too much sometimes.
Perhaps that’s what Kumar is doing here as well. I agree that it sounds a bit like a straw man, but that’s what he had to do to subtly criticize Sonnon. He may have been talking about yoga for years, but he never taught a seminar in it until now. I still believe the Sonnon material prompted him to do this.
13 james // Jun 13, 2007 at 7:49 am
so I am curious now: tell us more about Sonnon, as long as his stuff is not about cossack dancing, gymnastics and break dancing. I´m not really feeling strong enough for that at the moment
14 chessman71 // Jun 13, 2007 at 9:31 am
Haha! Will do!
15 Frédo // Jun 13, 2007 at 5:11 pm
Maybe the problem is that they are more than one way to be flexible.
First, you have the flexibility of the “big” tendons, the one that allows you to do the split, for example, or any flexibility required in acrobatics.
Second, you have the flexibility of the muscles.
Third, you have the flexibility of the tendons around the articulations.
Finally, maybe it is not called flexibility, but some practices are trying to stretch the internal organs.
All of these four help with what some may call the flow, but is is certain that the last three ones help great deal while the first one only a very little bit.
It is then, whatever your practice is, a question of what you are really stretching and how.
My 0.000000000005 Hongkies
16 chessman71 // Jun 13, 2007 at 9:04 pm
Fredo,
Interesting. Sonnon’s method works by increasing the range of the motion of the joints. He isn’t really concerned about the muscles or normal stretching. Maybe it fits under #3 that you’ve pointed out. I’m not sure.
17 Frédo // Jun 13, 2007 at 9:38 pm
Well, if his aim is to “open” the joints (increasing, indeed, the range of their motion) by making the tendons around them more flexible and allowing, after a certain time, the joints to slightly dislocate, it certainly would be 3.
18 Chad // Jun 17, 2007 at 5:02 am
I don’t know what BK is talking about when he says “fibers stretched”. The muscle fibers are telescopic not elastic in the rubber band type of sense. Fascia and passive tissue is visco-elastic in properties which means any stretch you put into it will go away with repeated contraction of the active muscle tissue. Essentially, flexability is neuro-muscular, not mechanical in the way most people think. Check out “sliding filament theory” for a detailed explination of how a muscle works at that level.
Dave, you are absolutely correct in your summation of the problem between static and dynamic or active flexability. Static stretching has very little to no effect on dynamic ROM. this has been shown time and time again, yet people still insist on doing static stretching before workouts.
I think Yoga, even in it movement oriented forms, places much more emphasis on posture and less on quality of movment. What BK and other call “moving with energy” or “relaxed” movment. What it really is is nueromuscular effeciency. With practice a movment gets hard wired into the body so that the muscles can contract only at the level they need to with no wasted effort. Also, you body adapts to any activity the more you do it and uses less and less energy to perform the same tasks. this is called General adaptation syndrome. It is the reason people who work out to loose weight and dont change their regimen don t loose any weight.
I think the focus of the two arts is different and it is this that accounts for the disparagy btw them.
19 onebir // Dec 3, 2007 at 3:23 pm
“I think Yoga, even in it movement oriented forms, places much more emphasis on posture and less on quality of movment. ”
I think this is a critical point. Even in a dynamic yoga (like Ashtanga) you spend 5 breaths in each posture, and 1 moving between postures, so the opportunity to refine the movement is very limited.
One thing no-one seems to have mentioned is the use of bandhas in yoga. The two lower bandhas direct energy upwards. It feels like this weakens the connection with the ground - a “derooting” effect & a minus for IMAs.
On the plus side, getting used to using these bandhas makes you aware of when they’re unconsciously tensed when you’re not practicing. On the minus side, some yogis I’ve talked to about this like to keep them engaged all the time . Some of these people don’t strike me as particularly relaxed…
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