Here’s an interesting bit by Ted Mancuso over at the Plum Publications Blog on the real meaning of lineage.
Lineage is important to different degrees on different levels. Let’s talk about what’s not of that much importance. First is that you have “the entire system”. That last little bit of learning is often held back. I have direct experience with this—where the last part of a system became a sort of bargaining chip between teacher and student. I’m not saying this as sour grapes because I’m telling you that the “last secret” which you are suffering to acquire is often just public knowledge in the next village. I’ll never forget that my first Chin Na teacher, Won Baines Hong, was a true master of the 72 Hands and, lacking the last hand, once paid a teacher $150.00 for it, an incredible sum in China before World War II.
Now about discipleship. The more we talk about this the more it all boils down not to discipleship but relationship. Was there actually a relationship between student and teacher? Can you believe it? There are actually discipleships where there is almost no relationship?
Most people just claim lineage without referring to depth of relationship. And the nature of relationship has changed. I believe it was Tohei who, with non-comprehension, complained that when he offered to accompany his American students back to Japan to be certificated from his teacher, Ueshiba O-Sensei, they had little interest because, after all, they only really knew and indentified with Tohei himself.
Lineage itself is important, experientially. It means you went to the source, sipped the tea, saw the face, asked the questions. The next thing is: what did you walk away with? Pure is nice. Creative is better. But only by being directly exposed will you know what creative means, how creative to be and how appropriate to your level. You go to a teacher to start as a beginner, let’s say. In that case your lineage is a claim of foundational training and that’s solid if it last more than a year or so. Less than that is not lineage: just propinquity. At the middle level you go for exposure to important concepts. A ten year veteran can’t go to a seminar with Ma Hong, learn a set and claim lineage. The transmission is too superficial for his standing. If this middle level practitioner goes to a seminar on just Pi Quan, that’s different. The advanced person should be at the level of the holographic and the instantaneous. Wu Yu Xiang learned Tai Chi from Chen Qing Pin for only some months. Liu Yun Jiao’s original time with Gong Bao Tian was only nine months. No problem. I’ve met people I would happily claim as students with three months training between us—if they come to me with work already accomplished.
Some people make way too much of lineage and others undervalue it. Lineage isn’t even close to being everything, as the quote clearly shows. In the original article, the author talked about people that had their foot stepped on by Bruce Lee later claiming lineage form him. Haha.
I like the fact that relationship, and not the formal ceremony, is mentioned as being the most important. So many formal disciples frankly don’t have much of anything. In fact, it seems par for the course here in Taiwan to buy a lineage. You wouldn’t believe the sums of money that change hands just so people can claim to be disciples. And this goes on all the time.
I remember a thread over at EF not long ago about someone who was very close training-wise and personally to a member of the Yang family. It was asserted that he was a disciple who was taught the skills, but a big deal was made that he wasn’t “on the official list.” IMO, the people arguing that position need to read this article above. The ceremony means nothing.
Ted’s comment about how being part of a lineage allows you access to the combined experiences of the members of that lineage needs to be shouted from the rooftops. Finally! Someone said it!
Will all those “it’s not the lineage or the system, it’s the man” people finally wake up? Having access to that kind of knowledge can get you way ahead of the game. When you stand on the shoulders of giants, it’s much easier to reach the top.
All these people learning from “non-traditional” lineages (in other words “fakes”) and everyone learning forms from videos are missing out on this aspect of MA training.
Finally, his point about advanced people learning much in a short time is a great point. Some people have put down Sun style taiji because Sun didn’t study for years with Hao Wei-chin. But as Ted correctly notes, that isn’t necessary if you’ve trained for years and have grasped what makes IMA tick.
6 responses so far ↓
1 Thomas // Jun 4, 2007 at 1:58 am
“Finally, his point about advanced people learning much in a short time is a great point. Some people have put down Sun style taiji because Sun didn’t study for years with Hao Wei-chin. But as Ted correctly notes, that isn’t necessary if you’ve trained for years and have grasped what makes IMA tick.”
AND if the teacher is open, and willing and able to teach high-level principles and skills.
We still don’t know how much high-level taiji Sun was able to glean from Hao Weizhen in their brief time together. Clearly Sun was an intelligent and discerning student . . . but he was already wrapped up in xingyi and bagua . . . not exactly an empty vessel. According to Sun’s recollection, Hao was grateful for the help and attention when lost and ailing in Beijing, so it seems like Hao would have been quite willing to share what he could with Sun.
Sun spent the next twenty or so years continuing to refine and meld what he’d learned from Hao (at the very least, the external shapes of the solo Hao taolu) with his previous xingyi and bagua training. It still very much seems like a soft xingyi sequence to me, with some bagua stepping. Dan bien and the kai/he movement seeded throughout the sequence seem the most “taiji-like” to me.
At a general level one can speak of commonality of principles among the internal martial arts. But when it gets down to the specifics of practice, they seem like quite distinct arts to me. I’m not sure how much taiji is actually in Sun’s form or related applications. Still, it’s a good practice in its own right.
2 chessman71 // Jun 4, 2007 at 8:28 am
Tom, I’m not much for emptying my cup lately, so I’m likely to see Sun hanging on to his knowledge as a good thing.
I’ve been reminded numerous times that the three arts are essentially the same, but use different means to get there. So they have commonalities and differences. Whether or not a student should study more than one IMO depends on the students time and desire, and getting them from preferably one teacher.
So for Sun to use his XYQ/BGZ background to understand the TJQ doesn’t faze me in the least.
Purity is just a marketing tactic.
3 Formosa Neijia - Exploring Taiwan’s Martial Arts » On mentorship // Jun 4, 2007 at 8:31 am
[...] About lineage [...]
4 Jose de Freitas // Jun 4, 2007 at 10:57 pm
Plus, Sun style Taiji has been analyzed to death by so many Taiji masters who think of it as legitimate Taiji, that it would be downright disrespectful to say it isn’t!
Personally, I think that it is closer to XY than Taiji, but the Taiji he learned is the basis of what made the Sun form such a triumph of biomechanics.
Have you guys seen another XY/Taiji combination form, which is really great? If someone knows who created it, please tell me!
http://video.google.it/videoplay?docid=-5436594811779324384&hl=it
5 eastpaw // Aug 8, 2007 at 9:02 pm
“I’ve been reminded numerous times that the three arts are essentially the same, but use different means to get there.”
I beg to differ. The more I see of Xingyi and Bagua, the more I see differences between them. Surely they share a lot in commmon, but would not thinking they are basically the same be rather dangerous?
On the other hand, being versed in any internal art probably does make learning any other internal art a lot easier. It still would not be easy by any stretch of the imagination, but it would certainly be easier than if one were to start from a blank slate or, worse, with a strong background in external styles.
6 chansk76 // Aug 17, 2007 at 1:28 pm
Lineage - What does it really mean to you when you don’t understand what the training is all about? What is the point of lineage when you don’t even know how to apply effectively on what you have learnt? It is just like a testimonial and nothing else. To put it in a impolite way, you are just borrowing the name of others (the early well-known martial artists).
After so many centuries since the born of XingYi Quan and from the inventor of XingYi (李駱能）to his 8 well-known disciples, each disciple has their own emphasis and invented their own type of XingYi. And the changes and inventions continues till today with the spreading of XingYi Quan internationally. Are you saying that the grand-disciples of 李駱能 are not practising the right XingYi because they are not learning purely what their grand master has taught to their masters (the 8 disciples).
A normal person do not know how to fight with XingYi Quan at the day they are born. They need to learn from someone else and this unavoidable tradition goes on. If we back track it, where did a XingYi practitioner learn his XingYi from? His master!! Am I right? Till the end, we are still back-tracking XingYi Quan to the inventor. Therefore, how can you say other person’s XingYi Quan is fake?
There is no fake or real. It is just a concept of an extreme person. Instead of putting it as fake, why don’t you take it as XingYi Quan has revolutionized; or further developed; or improved? What we should learn is the concept of XingYi boxing and not just keep thinking about lineage. The inventor of XingYi Quan (spirit) would not want you to claim to his lineage if you ended up being whacked or lose to someone and this will be rather embrassing.
Leave a Comment