Judging from the comments, I think we’re missing the point of my post about victimization. I’m NOT talking about just visiting a new school for the first time. That isn’t what happened here. I’ve started over with MA so many times I can’t count them. I’ve visited dozens of school over the course of my martial career. I know the difference between just visiting or starting over and this recent experience. That’s not what I’m talking about, nor am I talking about “emptying my cup.”
Again, this guy approached me in the park, I DIDN’T approach him. Why did he do that? Why approach someone you don’t know and then “correct” them? Can’t people see this guy’s need to be the authority?
Forget him and his students picking apart my santishi. For some reason, most of the comments on that post focus on that part, but that was insignificant compared to the rest of the experience.
When him and his student did their version of push hands and sparring, they were trying to push me down as hard as they could and/or possibly hurt me right from the beginning. Imagine how you would feel if you went to visit a school and, while you’re just chatting, the teacher said “oh, we teach push hands, too” and then he grabbed your elbow, hit you in the chest with his shoulder and tried to throw you to the ground. Then when that doesn’t work, he tries everything he knows to wrestle you to the ground. That’s what he did.
It’s so very clear that he wasn’t trying to teach me anything. He was trying to use me to prove something.
Perhaps an example from BJJ would help.
One time we were supposedly practicing an escape from a rear-naked choke where the other guy is flat on his back and you’re on his belly. This is about the worst possible position to be in. The assistant that day had a real ego problem, and I think we all knew it. He also had a pretty girlfriend who was a student in the class and he obviously wanted to show what a man he was. When he got each student into the hold, he clamped down with all his strength. Understand that this was the very first time we had done this move/escape. No one could make the technique work and get out. When it was my turn, he sealed my breath immediately and all I could do was struggle. When the other guy is allowed to get the perfect angle and use all his strength right from the start, then there is not much you can do, especially as a beginner.
I was pissed and afterward told him to ease the hell up because we were just learning the technique. He said we needed to learn it with realistic resistance right from the beginning.
It was so very clear that he was just being a prick and using us to show off. We were the victims of his need to feed his ego in front of his girlfriend. If we got hurt, then too bad. Attendance at the school naturally started going down.
This kind of crap happens all the time. Think of the clips you’ve seen on youtube:
1. the Asian MA teacher that beat his students with a stick
2. the Russian army teacher that had students line up so he could kick them full-force in the stomach
3. the kenpo classes where sparring turned into brawl as the aggressor did as much damage as possible
Again, the point I’m trying to make about victimization is that sometimes “empty cup” isn’t what is happening. Sometimes these guys are looking for suckers to beat up on or humiliate in order to feel better about themselves. Don’t be a chump!
15 responses so far ↓
1 omni // May 20, 2007 at 11:18 am
Ok, I get the idea then. Since you were in that kind of situation, you handled yourself pretty well and in the end they were the chumps big-time. So how would you avoid ending up in that kind of situation in the first place?
Cheers
2 chessman71 // May 20, 2007 at 11:39 am
I think the first step is what I was trying to get at in the first post: realize that in IMA victimization may be a bit more subtle. Second, look out for people that approach you instead of you approaching them. Third, look for sneak attacks like what this guy did on me. And last, I would look for excessive use of force.
I also noticed that this guy wasn’t interested at our first meeting in the park in what I already thought, even though I told him I had about years of experience. So I would say look out for preachy people, as well.
3 Dojo Rat // May 20, 2007 at 12:58 pm
Well,… I still say they were challenge matches.
That guy wanted to make you an example and treat you like a doormat in front of his students.
You defended your honor, spirit and quality of training. Enough said.
4 baichi // May 20, 2007 at 3:43 pm
I think I got the idea of your first post, and I still say this is pretty common, no matter where (maybe less ‘physical’ in western countries?). When I wrote about a beginner visiting another school, I was not talking about ‘emptying the cup’ either. I mean, noone wants a student who thinks he already knows everything, but there are a lot of ego things going on that should not be justified by some philosophical or pseudo-philosophical idea.
It’s like having a teacher who just has a bad temper and you justify that by saying ’students have to learn it the hard way, else it won’t be real’.
In your example, I think someone who was actually thinking about joining that Xingyi class would have been treated differently. This macho passive-aggressive thing would have probably shown through as well, but from what you described it was obvious that ‘winning you over’ as a new student was not his goal, or at least not his top priority.
On the other hand, maybe it IS his usual method to beat prospective new students into submission, both for his ego and so that the new student is obeying him…
5 chessman71 // May 20, 2007 at 8:30 pm
Yeah, you guys are right. This teacher was intent on mopping the floor with me in front of his students. For what reason, I’ll never know. My posts on this topic are designed to bring out what Dojorat saw so clearly right from the beginning. He seemed to have picked up on the challenging nature of this encounter.
So Rat, do you have experience with this? Or have you heard of this happening? If so, I’d love to hear about it on your blog.
6 Dojo Rat // May 21, 2007 at 1:07 am
It just reminded me of every schoolyard encounter I ever had.
As far as in the relm of martial training, I have these thoughts:
1. First, you DID empty your cup on the first encounter, showing the man respect for what you could genuinely learn from him.
2. You called bullshit on his technique in the second encounter. This is most common in my experiance with martial experts. At an Aikido seminar several years back, one of my Kenpo buddies asked the instructor what he would if my buddy tried to hit him. The instructor said “hold out your arm so I can feel the energy”. My buddy laughed and walked out. The next Aikido instructor he tried that with (the one who I later trained with) took his punch and floored him with a great takedown. He then got my buddies respect.
My other training partner had extensive small-circle Jujitsu training with Leon and Wally Jay in London and elswhere. At some seminar somewhere an “expert” instructor tried to put some lock on him that was completely wrong. My friend just stood there and passivly resisted the lock, and the frustrated instructor threw a shit fit about it. My friend walked out of the seminar. My old TaeKwon Do Master used to take his students to Koichi Tohie’s (sp?) Aikido seminars and instruct them not to fall down when he demoed on them. Terribly embarrasing. I am currently having issues with an instructor that doesn’t like a vertical fist position I am using to speed-hit with. The problem is, I have way more practical hitting experiance than he does.
I guess to sum up, these things are probably more common than we think, especially after we have been around for a while.
I’ll mull this around for a bit and maybe come up with another post –D.R.
7 Sean // May 21, 2007 at 6:47 am
Sadly I have seen and continue to see this type of behavior over and over again. I am sorry you had to experience the sickness this teacher displayed. From your account I feel that your actions were just and that you demonstrated greater humanity.
Nobody is better (or deserves more respect) than anybody else. Everyone’s shit stinks and we’re all going to die.
Keep the faith
8 Hermann // May 21, 2007 at 7:56 am
Yeah, Sean summed it up quite well, but it makes me still wondering whether some principles of IMA are misused only too often.
In a Beijing park, I was practicing Taiji staff, some other guy with one came up, wanted to practice some sticky stuff, but as I politly bowed for greeting, bending fortwards, he smashed his stuff onto my eyebrow, making me bleed. Taiji softness?
Visiting a new teacher in another town (brother of my former teacher) with a letter of introduction, aksing politly for more guidance, my first section was ridiculed, my pushing hands was tested, I was pressed harder an harder, till I couldn’t resist the temtatoius opportunities, making this agressive student of the master hit the floor. The master shouted loud, blaming his student for loosing face, frocing the student to beat me up. The student didn’t, but left the teacher alltogether.
Result: Even I train with some guys of that school weekly, the master still hates me, never talks to me and cannot stand that a foreigner learned a little usefull stuff with his own brother.
So, the face concept, the hirarchical structure of Chinese society, the hidden racism, shows through also in IMA.
As I’m getting older, I rediscover different aspects of these arts, practice much more for myself, avoiding any king of conflict with unknown people. I don’t subscribe this modern exchange thing with other schools. There is no firendly match, it’s all about winning, they never invest in loss, it’s always up to us.
Was it ever intended to have these friendly encounters. Didn’t the old ones stay home 10 years and then fight with every other fighter, till they lost and became students again?
After a broken nose and a torn thumb capsula, most important points in IMA for me lay within myself, it’s my struggle with myself, my strife for personal cultivation.
Too hippie? Too New Ages?
Or only old age?
9 hakchigi // May 21, 2007 at 8:31 am
I’ve never had experiences this dramatic but with two school’s I’ve visited, they criticised my form straight out -one guy got the style wrong (Yang style for hunyuan) in an obvious attempt to belittle my experience and make me feel I’m with a ‘master’ now… One was unwilling to do push hands with me however, so I walk out.
And 90% foreigners are beginners, so they think they have the edge until someone with real experience shows up. Well, it sounds like the Xingyi guy had it coming… I say you did the right thing in showing him up! It’s important to find what’s genuine in IMA because there are fakes out there…
But I did find a school they I believe was genuine, and the teacher showed respect to my previous learning (as he did other students -since many were already seasoned martial artists I new he’d won respect)
10 zenmindsword // May 21, 2007 at 5:04 pm
a common martial arts saying “there is only no. 1, no no. 2″. as my teachers used to tell me if someone wants to try anything just beat them up. no need to do nice demo and explain to them because you never know what hidden agenda they have. being nice can earn you a lot of grief. its hard to be a nice guy in martial arts world. that’s why i always like to say i do taiji because the more practical oriented people would not believe taiji is practical and they would end up giving me a lecture about their style. i get free tips and they go away happy with their ego boosted over how they put the over-rated taiji in its place. my dong taiji who is a legal eagle said it best “touch me and its either you die or i die”
11 seeker6 // May 21, 2007 at 10:13 pm
Dear Zenmindsword,
You sound like a George Bush fan. “It’s them or us, it’s good or evil, it’s life or death, you die or I die” etc. Sure, sometimes this is true, but the world is more multi colored. There are more shades of color than that.
If you had been in Chessman’s positon what would you have done? Would you have beaten the teacher, as Chessman did (and he came out very well, I might add) or would you have “beaten him up”. I think the latter would have been unnecessary and possibly dangerous with the rest of the club looking on.
I take your point that martial arts are serious and I think your point about only claiming to study tai chi,in the situation you outlined, is wise. I just think the first part of your comment got a bit carried away.
12 zenmindsword // May 22, 2007 at 9:12 am
hi seeker, i’m not a george bush fan but our govt supports the US govt so i suppose we should toe the line
but seriously i had a student who was nicely listening to a senior master explain his techniques when out of the blue the master just hit him. out of reaction my student just hit the master back and knocked his glasses off. the master never forgave him. on the one hand it was nice to hear that all the reaction drills and sensitivity training paid off but on the other hand it was not so nice to be “disrespectful” but i guess the old guy asked for it. after all, if he is truly a master he should be able to explain and demo good control rather than have to really hit to make a point.
i have not been in dave’s position so i can’t say - maybe its because when people see me play form they have 2nd thoughts about trying to be funny
and it goes without saying that i wouldn’t make the mistake of showing up at somebody’s school unless i was an unknown student with nothing to lose and is genuinely looking to learn something and won’t mind getting criticized. if i do now people will want to see what i have got and if i show something and they want a touch of hands then if i make them lose its not good for the teacher but if i lose its not good for my teacher. so the best is if want to try go to a neutral place and have an exchange 1-to-1. in this way nobody loses face and no one else has to know what happened. as my friend the wing chun master said “i am not afraid of one person but i am afraid of a crowd”.
this is also the reason why masters in the old days keep certain things away from public knowledge so that if a challenger shows up he could be in for a surprise
do you really think i got carried away? that first comment came to me 2nd hand via my shaolin teacher and it originated from a very famous shaolin monk the Rev Sek Koh Sum whom any old timers in Singapore will tell you is a bloody legend in his own time. he was hauled in for questioning once and whacked a marble table so hard that it split in half when the police annoyed him with their questions. my friend told me that the Rev also sidekicked a tree a few times once and the tree just withered and died a few days later. another friend told me how the Rev would ask them to fight one against the few gangsters who would show up to collect protection money.
but face it we have a lot of road bullies and if you were confronted by one coming at you with a length of pipe what would you do? my dong taiji teacher said that as long as the guy is scolding its fine. he will sit and bear with it. but the moment he is touched he will go ape shit and whacked the guy. and my dong teacher is a lawyer and should know the consequences of the law better than anyone else. but it highlights the seriousness of a real situation rather than a martial show-off situation.
my personal POV - don’t put yourself in such situations and you live a happy life. but if you are caught in one, the you have to make a decision and live with it. it takes a man to apologize to try to defuse the situation even when one is not in the wrong. the easy way is to fight. but once one decides to fight can they be such a thing as half hearted fight? there once was a fight at a pub in sydney’s bondi area. the guy who got whacked came back with a shotgun and shot the guy who beat him. would the guy who got shot have been better served if he had thoroughly whacked the shooter in the first place? i leave this questions to you to ponder because each of us have our own POV which only time will tell if its the right one
13 Kreese // May 22, 2007 at 12:50 pm
I would ask myself how I got into the situation in the first place. There is often a series of events that lead to a victimization experience. Since you can’t do anything about assholes being assholes, I’d look to see what, within my power, I could control.
In any case, I’m glad you held your own. It would really suck if the guy tried to pick on you because you’re white.
14 chessman71 // May 22, 2007 at 4:39 pm
Kreese,
Yeah, as I’ve already said, I tend to be a little naive. My teacher has warned me so many times about stuff like this, but this xingyi guy slipped under my radar a bit.
I’m going to discuss a particular type of racism that I think may have played a part in this in a post very soon.
15 seeker6 // May 23, 2007 at 11:21 pm
Zenmindsword, carried away was perhaps the wrong choice of words. Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes; I’m not sure.
If someone was coming at me with a length of pipe I would do whatever I could to stop him, and stop him hard, as someone like that is dangerous. So it looks like we would agree in that kind of situation.
I also happily agree that it is better to defuse a situation before any real problems develop. In fact I think that a martial arts training is particularly valuable in this kind of situation as it is easier to remain calm if you don’t feel too threatened.
My point really was that there is a third category of confrontation for which other options are sometimes available. For example; I was once in a meeting with strangers and my neighbour (a much bigger and stronger person than me) decided to restrain me and prevent me from standing as he disagreed with my ideas (and was also a bully). My first martial art was aikido and I put a simple wrist lock on him and he had to let go. Nobody else noticed and apart from glaring at me he did nothing. This was a minor situation, but if I had done nothing he might of prevented me from taking an active part in the meeting. I suppose I could have cried out for help, but that didn’t appeal to me. I’ve had a number of similar minor incidents when bullies have tried to coerce me and each time I’ve managed to prevent this from happening.
In a serious attack,I realize, that this is not an option unless, perhaps, you are much better than I am at restraining techniques.
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