DojoRat posted a synopsis of these recent posts about my encounter with this new xingyi teacher. In that post, he described these encounters as challenge matches, and I laughed at first when I read that. But then I thought about what my teacher said when I told him of these encounters.
He thought that this guy was trying to victimize me.
Think about it like this. I was just practicing in the park, doing my own thing. This teacher came up to me wanting to push and then showed me the “error of my ways.” What was his agenda? Did he feel the need to be THE expert in the park?
It became much clearer when I went to his class. Him and his students tearing apart my santishi (the basic xingyi stance) was unnecessary unless they were trying to show that they knew everything and I knew nothing. Afterall, I had made it clear that I was ready to just learn what they did. What a sucker I am. I was being respectful of them, but that wasn’t being returned.
Then look at the way he introduced his push hands and sanshou (sparring practice) on me. Is that what you do with first-time visitors? Do you ambush them like that? I don’t think so. What the hell was he trying to prove? If he was being friendly, why did we do sanshou immediately after he couldn’t get me off balance in push hands and why did he come at me aggressively like that? And why did he call his student over right after he couldn’t get out of my headlock? In retrospect, it seems a lot clearer that they were out to use me as a chump, but some part of me had decided not to play their game.
Another detail shows this even more clearly. Throughout the whole incident, this teacher was very clear that, according to him, I didn’t have any neijin (internal force). After him and his top student couldn’t do anything with me, and I threw the student around at will, the teacher started saying that my “liqi” (muscular force) was better than his or his students. At that point it’s so very clear that even if I defeated them on their own turf, there was no way they were going to acknowledge that I had any skill at all. Even after I threw both of them, it couldn’t have been because I had any internal power. I was just “using muscle.” Funny how it never occurred to them that my IMA practice is what makes my body strong. I also think there was some subtle racism going on, but I’ll post about that later.
The lesson is that I need to stop being so naive.
These encounters are challenge matches of a sort, and I need to start taking them seriously or I’ll be played as a chump. The usefulness of what I’ve been taught is obvious since I threw these guys around. I need to stop being so impressed when someone shows me something and realize that what I’m learning is pretty good.
We often think of challenge matches as something dramatic like a guy walks into a school and throws down a glove or something. But most of the time, especially in IMA, things are more subtle than that. There is an AWFUL LOT of passive aggression and mind games going on in the IMA world. People are very skilled at defeating others mentally before the physical game even begins. Thank goodness that I’ve learned some physical skills or I would have been in a bad way in these encounters. Now I plan to toughen up my mental game.
I think this guy was out to victimize me by showing that he and his students knew everything and I supposedly knew nothing. But understand that I’m not talking about victimization in the “oh, poor me” way; nor an I saying that I’m going to cry my eyes out on Oprah. Haha.
Learn from my experience, if you can. Try to see when you’re playing into someone else’s hands and how they might be trying to manipulate you. Don’t be a victim.
15 responses so far ↓
1 baichi // May 19, 2007 at 2:07 pm
Honestly, I don’t think this is very rare, it’s probably not even limited to IMA. It may be more severe in IMA, because you have all those oh-so-important concepts which either have to be “true” (what your group is doing) or “wrong” (what everyone else is doing).
Think about it, the way many many teachers behave when some “outsider” comes to their school, wether it is a prospective new student or a student’s friend or whatever. Among the first things to tell him is that everyone else is doing it “all wrong”, while the teacher got it right. I’m sure everyone made that kind of experience at least once.
It is especially ridiculous when the outsider is not yet very experienced in practice (easier to victimize you might say). Let’s say this beginner is doing standing meditiation in order to relax and get a feeling of sinking, which is the way his teacher taught him. This other teacher will then tell him that it’s all wrong or at least that he didn’t get the exercise at all, since there are twenty million other things zhanzhuang is used for. While that may even be true, it is complete nonsense to teach that to a beginner. The teacher himself would probably tell some newbie that he should just relax and try to develop a feeling of sinking - but in front of the outsider, he has to show off how deep his knowledge is and that only he is skilled or honest enough to teach it.
I think this fits the mental “challenging” you described very well. IMA seem to be especially vulnerable to that, due to all those rules, concepts and exercises that get sanctified by so many practioners, whereas the actual skill (which should be the goal) is forgotten…
2 Graham // May 19, 2007 at 3:05 pm
Out and out laughing in front of everybody at what you’ve learned before is standard practice from Chinese Martial Art teachers - it’s how they do business.
3 chessman71 // May 19, 2007 at 3:12 pm
Baichi,
I agree that this probably happens more often in schools that do more sparring, like JMA and BJJ/MMA schools. It just has a different flavor in IMA circles.
Graham,
Possibly, but I mention a lot more than that in the post.
4 baichi // May 19, 2007 at 4:01 pm
Challenges may or may not be more common for schools that focus on free fighting, I do not have the direct experience in order to comment on that. I do think though that most of these people perceive others, outsiders, newcomers etc. more as an individual rather than followers of some other system (read: sect). That is the most annyoing thing with IMA, that it’s not about what an individual is able to do (his or her skills) but about the martial arts ‘beliefs’ so to say. At least those practioners of sparring-oriented systems (for lack of a better term) I know personally are a lot more open minded than 99% of the IMA crowd I had contact with… maybe they are prone to get a little bit more ‘rough’ when it comes to challenges, but it probably will not have such a hypocritical flavor (or passive aggression as you named it).
5 C.J.W. // May 19, 2007 at 4:36 pm
Dave
I empathize with the experience that you went through. There are just too many of those people out there who think they know everything and are superior to everyone else when it comes to martial arts. Back in my Aikido/Jujitsu days in the States, I’d always get corrected by older practitioners whose techniques, in most cases, were worse than mine but insisted that I must do it their ways. If not, they’d just resist with all their might in order to prove that “see! your way doesn’t work!”
Age is a big factor because I was only in high school back then. In CMA it’s even worse because seniority is emphasized. If some 80 year old dude who’s been doing Taiji in the park for 6 months come over and criticize your kung fu, you are expected to be patient and listen to what they have to say out of politness.
In your case I think race is also an issue. There are still silly people out there who think foreigners do not have good skills and need to be properly taught by self-proclaimed Asian experts.
I am glad you taught them a lesson, Dave. Good for you.
6 hz // May 20, 2007 at 12:29 am
You know, I’ve been reading this blog for awhile, in fact I sort of found it back in my CMA days…
Anyway, excellent post. It’s this sort of behavior that pushed me toward Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu a year or so ago. I got really tired of the “pecking order” and “posturing” of the CMA world.
In fact, what I love about BJJ is the belt ranking is 100% honest. You meet a BJJ blue belt, you know they have skills and know they can beat 90% of all white belts, etc etc.
What I find is that creates a much more humble and understanding environment. Instead of the posturing and polticial positioning, you know who knows what they are doing and who can back it up.
With all that being said, I find your blog fascinating, I see so many similarities between good BJJ and IMA, it’s great to read your historical perspective.
Thanks!
7 Dojo Rat // May 20, 2007 at 1:25 am
I think we all learned something from your experiance, but I would watch your back just in case next time. From what you have described in the past about the racially charged atmosphere, some jealous asshole could try to blindside you…
8 Jess O // May 20, 2007 at 2:04 am
Hi Dave, I’ve enjoyed your blog posts. Sounds like this run in with a Xingyi crowd was another good experience.
I spend a lot of time visiting teachers and schools outside of my own. Almost without exception I have to start over each time as the guy who sucks and the object lesson in how to do everything wrong.
It is frustrating indeed. However, as mentioned by you and others, it seems to come with the territory.
In the CMA, and I suspect in many other arts, we have two choices. One is to live comfortably in our own little bubble where what we do is correct and right and is validated. Two is to venture outside into other schools and styles and always start off as the guy who sucks.
The advantage of getting out there and doing the visiting is manyfold. You learn to be humble, to be polite, to eat bitter, to keep your mouth shut, to show respect, and to focus on your own mistakes. These are painful to learn but are good lessons in general.
I have many friends that have a very very hard time going to a new school or new teacher for a visit. It’s scary, it’s charged with emotion and its not very good for one’s ego. But without this kind of thing it’s far too easy to get stale and invested in your own practice. Visiting others really helps you improve what you do, and helps you realize that there are lots of people out there just as good as you are.
I’ve also learned so much about the vast variety of different methods within the CMA. It’s a truly vast field. I’ll never be able to look at a form no matter how bizzare and say,”Thats not IMA” because I’ll have seen worse at some point.
I guess I just wanted to throw a few cents in on a topic that is big on my mind. Visiting other strange schools is a big pain in the ass and sucks on so many levels. Yet it’s the one of the most important parts of our practice. Getting too comfortable is not conducive to developing skill. Without testing we stagnate.
Sometimes I have to literally drag myself to the door of the next Aikido, or kung fu, or chi gung, or MMA school just to force myself to put on a smile and walk in the door. I respect anyone who can do that, it takes a lot of emotional strength to go through that process again and again. And each time you learn some small bit of information that improves your practice in the tiniest way.
As far as how BJJ is so much better with accurate rankings and such, that’s a whole different topic of martial art versus sport. They are two different worlds that only cross over slightly. Accurate ranking in martial arts are impossible, you can measure success in a sport, but martial arts are aimed at survival and for that there only the question of if you are alive or dead. To me it’s apples and oranges.
Keep up the good posts.
-Jess O
9 Chris @ Martial Development // May 20, 2007 at 2:54 am
Whatever you do, NEVER embarrass the teacher of another school in public!
It sounds like you got out at the right time. In the next step, they ask you assist them with a demonstration. When you lower your guard, they “accidentally” break your arm.
10 omni // May 20, 2007 at 3:55 am
Thats an amazing experience! So, will you be paying another visit to them to ‘learn’ any xingyi?
11 chessman71 // May 20, 2007 at 9:15 am
About visiting them, I want to be clear that they insisted I do my santishi in front of them, even though I had already done so for the teacher in private. Looking at the whole experience, I now believe that he was trying to break me down in front of his students. I had already made it clear that I was willing to “empty my cup” but I truly believe that wasn’t enough here.
I also feel that ambushing me with tuishou and then sparring shows my point much better. I think we should focus on that. You just don’t grab first time visitors and try to throw them down with that grab unless you’re up to something.
But no, I won’t be visiting them again. I think that would be pushing my luck.
In response to Chris, that’s exactly what I did, but not on purpose. I’m telling all of you that these guys CAME AT ME. They weren’t holding back. In a situation like that, I felt justified doing what was necessary, which I did. He was obviously embarrassed, but I simply don’t care. You grab the snake’s tail enough times and you get bit. People from his apartment complex were there and so was his wife. When I had him in the headlock, she sighed and told him not to get hurt again. Haha. Big loss of face for him.
12 Formosa Neijia - Exploring Taiwan’s Martial Arts » Victimization pt. 2 // May 20, 2007 at 10:20 am
[…] Being victimized? […]
13 Dojo Rat // May 20, 2007 at 12:23 pm
You did good- They WERE challenge matches–
14 Frédo // May 21, 2007 at 3:59 pm
About the ” You are using Liqi, not Neijin” . It is a very common thing to accuse someone of using muscular force instead of what one could call “vitality” in order to justify the fact that one’s students, if not oneself, are not able to push or are even being pushed away.
There are, at least, 2 ways to answer to this:
The first is to tell the person that it may be true, but that all the IMAs consider that one should be able to control sheer force quite easily as the saying “Si liang po qian jin” goes in Taiji Quan. So for the least, it doesn’t seems that they have yet reached this level of understanding.
The second, a bit more aggressive, is linked with the breathing. A lot of practices link being out of breath to the use of muscular contraction. In other words, whatever you do, if you end up out of breath, it means you were, at a moment or another, contracted. If not, it means you understood how to relax within the motion. Hence, if you are not out of breath during and after PH, but your opponent(s) is (are), you can easily reply that your breathing is still normal, proof of your relaxation, while it not the case for your opponent(s).
And, yes, there are a lot of mind games in the IMAs, as well as in all MAs, but this is part of the game and one should be well-informed of those mind games and other dirty tricks.
Hope that helps a bit.
15 chessman71 // May 21, 2007 at 7:13 pm
Fredo,
Good comment. Thanks for that.
Actually, one thing that amazed me was that I wasn’t out of breath at all. My taiji has really been helping me relax. But my opponents were really breathing hard!
Can you believe that they still said I was the one using “liqi”?
I agree about the mind games. I should have pointed to the heavy breathing and asked them if that was their neijin. Haha!
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