This post will complete my trilogy on this topic. You might want to read what xingyi people could learn from taiji and what taiji could learn from xingyi first.
Long story short: I got a rematch of sorts with the xingyi teacher that was able to completely shut down my taiji. I attended his class west of Taipei with a couple of his students. The results were very interesting 
.
The class started with their version of santishi and a lecture on how my santishi was wrong in every conceivable way. The way that I do it doesn’t fit their model. But actually, I quite like their version since it leads to greater use of the kua — something I want to build in all my styles. So I’m happy to switch. But I got the impression that they thought I knew nothing since my santi was different from them. Haha.
Then the teacher said we would be learning push hands — like THIS — and wham, he just grabbed me and started pushing and pulling. I was a bit surprised by this. It was the “elephant wrestling” type of PH where you are right shoulder to right shoulder and each person has an underhook and an overhook each. He really seemed to be going for it, but I felt out of my depth. I hadn’t really practiced that before, but I obliged him. Thing is, even after ten minutes, he still never got me off-balance. I then said “wow, I’m tired” as a way to get out of it since I was a bit embarrassed. Perhaps my relaxation saved the day for me. I’m not sure.
Then he said that we also would be doing san shou and again WHAM! — he just stepped right in to push me over with xingyi tiger. I obliged him again and we went at it for a long time. But this time, things were different from our previous encounter.
For one thing, I only used the relaxation and sticking skills from my taiji. Offensively, my body seemed to automatically switch to baguazhang this time, which gave me a great advantage. The xingyi teacher kept coming right at me, but I didn’t have much trouble neutralizing what he set up to attack me. And I started noticing holes in his structure, despite his great power.
I just wrote a post on protecting the head in PH, which didn’t generate a lot of response. I would urge people to go back and look at that post. The BGZ that I was taught has several neck-surrounding throws and holds. I also noticed that this teacher was making the mistake I talked about in that post — he was inclining his head forward when he attacked. So naturally, I looped my arm around his neck, spun around on my front foot, and stole his balance for the neck-surrounding throw. I had his balance — he knew it and I knew it — and I could have thrown him. That was enough for me.
Instead of throwing him, I held the lock for a few seconds and then tried to let go. But I guess his ego was possibly hurt. After all, his students were watching. He demanded that I use force, but I said I didn’t want to. But he demanded very loudly that I do so — so I did. I ended up holding him in a head-lock that he couldn’t get out of for about five minutes. It was very embarrassing. He kept trying to peal my fingers or do qinna but his angle was all wrong. All I had to do was re-adjust my position by swinging him around, which I did. Finally, I let one of his finger peels work because I was getting tired of it.
Now I was in real trouble. He immediately called over his senior student (I got no break), who had been with him for ten years, and had been watching the whole time. He was taller and younger than me, and it was obvious what he was supposed to do.
But once again, BGZ saved the day. I had at my disposal a wide variety of techniques from the 64 palms of BGZ that these xingyi people had never seen before. That combined with BGZ stepping proved to be more than the senior student could handle.
I noticed very quickly that he was extending his front leg by using satishi as a ready stance — a big no-no IMO. So I stepped in with a BGZ throw and down he went. As if that wasn’t embarrassing enough for him, an old man was walking by the park and had stopped to watch us. When I threw the student, the old man said in a loud voice “Shuaijiao hen bang! (shuaijiao is great!)” I threw the guy a big thumbs up and a grin, which in retrospect maybe wasn’t such a good idea. Whoops.
So we continued with sanshou, but now I had this guy’s number. I threw him again a few minutes later when he stepped in. It was even easier this time. A few minutes later, I swept him. After the third time, he became harder to throw or maybe I was just tired. So I settled for arm surrounding and control from BGZ, which I applied to him numerous times.
BTW, my taiji qinna that I love so much didn’t work at all. I tried it numerous times on the student. It didn’t work because we were drenched in sweat. I simply couldn’t grab his arms at all. It was comical because I kept slipping off.
Needless to say, I didn’t hear any more comments about my supposedly poor skills after all this. Not to say that I’m all that great, but I am obviously getting better. It feels good to make some progress. Haha.
I’ve been told numerous times that the 64 palms of BGZ are a treasure trove of techniques that you can mine endlessly for the rest of your life. In the BGZ that I learned, most of those techniques are offensive in nature, making them useful for attacking, unlike most taiji moves which are overwhelmingly defensive in nature. The palms also include most of the concepts that xingyi has, but go far, far beyond what xingyi is capable of. In fact, I have been told numerous times that BGZ is superior to xingyi, something that I’m starting to agree with.
The BGZ ability to cycle through the 64 palms/jins combined with the excellent footwork can allow the BGZ man to overwhelm the opponent, even a good taiji or xingyi stylist.
That’s a bit of what happened here. Through the 64, I had been exposed to a broad array of techniques that this excellent teacher simply hadn’t encountered, and had no way of answering.
To make matters worse, after I was done with the student, he took the student aside and for about 15 minutes supposedly showed him ways to counter my attacks. None of what he showed would work on me. Not one of them. The reason is that in every counter, he failed to show the student how to gain a superior angle. Instead, he showed the counters from a completely static position, no footwork involved. The best he could do was move forward, exactly what a BGZ man wants you to do. My attacks would go right through the counters that he was proposing because all I would have to do is borrow his force from the opposite angle as long as he stayed in front of me. That’s something else I learned from BGZ — crossing.
Even though this post is about bagua, one other thing from taji really, really helped me in this encounter - relaxation. I was so much more relaxed than my opponents. And it ain’t my cardio capabilities. Haha. I’m really learning to relax — something that only my taiji studies have really addressed.
The larger BGZ styles simply have a range of technique that taiji and xingyi can’t touch. For serious IMA fighters, this would be a worthwhile study, and again shows what training the three sisters can accomplish.
29 responses so far ↓
1 zenmindsword // May 17, 2007 at 2:17 pm
Ha, ha Dave I got a kick out of reading your post on this. Its obvious that the xingyi teacher thought that having force can dominate all the time. But bagua works on evasive angles and taiji on no angles. Maybe this is why xingyi tend to be associated with mingjing, bagua with anjing and taiji with huajing
2 Hermann // May 17, 2007 at 4:44 pm
Wow, great report, congrats on your success.
Looking forward to read more on bagua (which style and teacher?), and hopefully I can also study more martial stuff in my Yin-style school after getting past the “health-qigong introductory class”.
See you Saturday!
3 mo // May 17, 2007 at 5:50 pm
hey dave,
sounds like a great workout. i’m definitely going to try to hook up with you guys in beijing, let me know when you’ll be there cuz i can only get a few days off work. mike martello met my teacher in belgium, and he’s invited me to up and meet wang laoshi. hopefully we can get some friendly sparring in
see you soon
4 chessman71 // May 17, 2007 at 6:56 pm
ZMS,
Yes, I think that is exactly what he was thinking. His force is incredible; it’s like a tree. But then a tree has a pretty big weakness, doesn’t it — it can’t move.
You know, he actually tried to tell me that my xingyi is at the mingjing level and his is higher. I wonder what he thinks now? Haha.
Hermann,
See you Saturday! Looking forward to it.
Mo,
Sorry man. I forgot to put on the blog that I can’t go to Beijing. You can still meet up with Mike when he goes, though. Sorry about that. Let me know if you’re ever coming through Taiwan.
5 wujimon // May 17, 2007 at 8:27 pm
Awesome story. Reading it reminded me about those old school ‘line tests’ where you have to go against all of the students in line until you reach the master
Reading about this makes me wanna pick up the swimming dragon bagua I used to do back in the day. It’s a ’straight-line’ bagua type form that’s a no-nonsense, don’t-you-mess-with-me kinda form
6 C.J.W. // May 17, 2007 at 10:14 pm
Hey Dave:
Could you tell me who the master is and where he teaches in Taipei? I have been trying to locate Hsing-I practitioners other than ones from Hung/Zhang’s lineage.
7 jonathan liljeblad // May 17, 2007 at 11:18 pm
interesting commentary on baguazhang. that’s what i’ve been studying (although, oddly enough, i originally wanted to learn tai chi).
i’ve heard other people echo your comments about the nature of 64 palms being a storehouse of techniques. in BGZ, it seems that xiao kai men alone is a good sampling of useful techniques, but 64 palms is like a treasury.
this is, there are 2 things about 64 palms i think beginning students have to remember:
1) sometimes, the techniques in 64 palms are performed differently then they are in actual combat (i.e., they have to be done a certain way in circle walking or 2-person circle drills that are not identical to what you do in a free-form fight). my Sifu has always cautioned this, and has always insisted on having us recognize just how different combat can be from forms, 2-person drills, or sparring.
2) there are so many techniques in 64 palms that it’s easy for a student to remember the warning: “better to learn a few techniques well, than to learn many techniques poorly.” to master all the techniques in 64 palms takes a LONG time, but a lot of students seem to be in a rush to learn all of them and so never get around to really mastering them–and when i say “mastering,” i mean not only being able to use them in a fight, but also understanding them in a way that you know how and when they can be modified (versus when they can’t).
BTW…who did you learn BGZ from? and what lineage? now i’m curious. and which xingyi school was this? i am really curious.
jonathan liljeblad
8 jonathan liljeblad // May 17, 2007 at 11:22 pm
i should have mentioned…from the tone of my post, i was referring to a lot of beginners i’m seeing here in SoCal. i wasn’t referring to anybody on this blog–everyone seems very advanced in this forum.
jonathan liljeblad
9 chessman71 // May 17, 2007 at 11:27 pm
Guys,
I’ve studied a couple of BGZ styles — especially Cheng and Gao styles — for many years. I considered myself to be a BGZ specialist for a long time, but not so much now. But many different systems have 64 palms, so this post is really generic in that I’m mainly talking about the 64 palms in general. IMO they are almost all good.
Wuji,
That’s exactly the kind of BGZ I was talking about. If you have a chance, learning that along with the pre-heaven stepping patterns can open up a whole new area of development for your IMA. Crosstraining these systems can be better than doing multiple versions of taiji IMO.
10 jonathan liljeblad // May 18, 2007 at 1:29 am
something else…and forgive me about being so curious…
i’ve always had the impression that many masters have “fought” (i don’t mean in anger, but as a matter of learning) with opponents from other styles as part of their process in becoming masters. i mean, they made an effort to use techniques in one style against practitioners of other styles to better learn their art. i thought this was especially true in Taiwan, where it seems kung fu is so much more a part of life than in the US.
but are you seeing things differently? this xingyi instructor, for example, doesn’t seem to have communicated or interacted too much with practitioners from other styles. is this something you see often in Taiwan?
11 wujimon // May 18, 2007 at 7:22 am
Chessman.. my initial formal foray into IMA is via the Wai Lun Choi camp. He’s big into the xingyi, bagua, taiji connection, especially since this is epitomized within the Liu He Ba Fa form (6 Harmonies, 8 Methods).
Anyhoo, I remember when I was doing some LHBF and found out a common recommendation is to also do some xingyi for power and bagua for maneuvering. I do actually miss doing the forms as they were no-nonsense, don’t-you-try-and-disrupt-my-breathing form
12 Dojo Rat // May 18, 2007 at 7:51 am
Hey there Chessman;
I directed my readers to your blog today because these are the best training experiance articles I have read in a long time. I would like to discuss it on my blog as part of a further point I have been trying to make about the benifits of cross training.
Really, really good stuff. Keep it up.
13 C.J.W. // May 18, 2007 at 7:56 am
I personally don’t think it’s nencessary to train all 64 palms. (Note that I said to train not to know) All too often, like previous posts point out, people get caught up with the idea that “more is better” and spend too much time training each individual palm as seperated applications without knowing how they relate to circle walking and ba gua principles. It’s better to figure out the core technique of the style and drill it over and over to develop the ba-gua body. Once this is achieved, the rest will follow easily.
When you beging to understand the essence of single palm and double palm change and the relationship between pre and post heaven palms, endless variations of 64 palms can be developed.
I have always been reminded that it’s far more important to find the common link that connects all 64 palms together.
14 hakchigi // May 18, 2007 at 1:46 pm
Thanks for sharing, that was fascinating… Your point about taiji being defensive stuck out to me, because sometimes it seems more advantageous to strike first then waiting for an attack and risk finding out whether you can neutralize it or not. That’s partly why I’m learning taekkyon at the moment…
15 chessman71 // May 19, 2007 at 2:18 am
Jonathan,
Good question, I hadn’t thought of that. Actually, you’re right — I rarely run into folks that haven’t cross-trained. But then there are some style purists here, they are just in the minority.
CJW,
I agree that the 64 can get overwhelming. I’ve felt that way before about just remembering all of them. But they remain a valuable resource.
Dojorat,
Thanks for the comments. I have trouble making comments over at your blog because I can’t sign in.
16 Q // May 19, 2007 at 2:46 pm
Interesting experience. That teacher doesn’t sound too friendly.
17 chessman71 // May 19, 2007 at 2:51 pm
Q,
Actually, he was very friendly, in a way. But see my next post on him that I just put up.
18 Graham // May 19, 2007 at 3:03 pm
“The BGZ ability to cycle through the 64 palms/jins combined with the excellent footwork can allow the BGZ man to overwhelm the opponent, even a good taiji or xingyi stylist.”
Some of the things you write here get stranger and stranger….
The above is silly. There are no such things as superior arts, only superior practitioners of those arts.
19 chessman71 // May 19, 2007 at 3:09 pm
Graham,
Not all systems are equal. What is available in a system can determine how far a practitioner develops and what he is exposed to.
20 GrahamB // May 19, 2007 at 5:45 pm
If a system is based on principles (as all the IMA are), then there are an unlimited no. of techniques that can arrise. They all have the same amount of content in that view. What’s ‘available’ in any IMA is unlimited, and limited only by the practitioners personal limitations and lack of vision.
‘One root - 10,000 branches.’
21 How to Stay Safe While Practicing at the Park // May 21, 2007 at 6:45 am
[…] your volunteer sifu, you are preventing them from satisfying an unstated emotional need. They may escalate the situation until they find satisfaction, up to and including a no-rules brawl. Unless you are willing to draw […]
22 Yuxian // May 21, 2007 at 7:23 am
I like the part where the old man shouted “Shuaijiao hen bag” and you gave the thumbs up. Awesome!
Shuaijiao hen bang!!
23 chessman71 // May 21, 2007 at 8:37 am
Yeah, that was like icing on the cake.
I couldn’t believe that happened. I was wondering if this guy was the xingyi teacher’s neighbor or something and didn’t like him. In any case, it just added to the loss of face. Oh, well. Not my fault. Haha.
24 josh // May 22, 2007 at 12:14 am
Wow, what a great story! Congratulations on successfully neutralizing this challenge. Just curious, are you referring to the 64 palms of Cheng Youxin, or Liu Dekuan’s 64 hands?
25 chessman71 // May 22, 2007 at 4:41 pm
I was referring to any of them. I have many examples of the 64 linear palms on VCD and I have yet to see a bad set. They all seem very useful.
26 tonyg // Jul 6, 2007 at 8:48 am
great post. im new to baguazhang and i enjoy it very much. thank you for this post.
27 Hiko_sama // Sep 8, 2007 at 5:27 pm
omoshiroi.. I would very much like to challenge you with my xing yi….
28 chessman71 // Sep 9, 2007 at 12:40 am
Martial arts are for defending your family and yourself. Not fighting stupid challenges.
29 tired=/ // Feb 8, 2008 at 3:59 pm
I dont think that guy was a great teacher. It seems as though he just wanted to promote himself and the art to get you to be his student. Which would lead me to say that yes it’s true martial arts are for defending, but there was a time where it was used for promoting oneself to gain students to make ends meet (technically like a job). =)
Unless the reason is good i think it’s a horrible idea to try to promote oneself through violence.
And as for the guy who thinks that a style of martial art can limit a person, it’s not necessary fully true. For example if one person studies and become proeificient at a style he is only limited if his mind is limited thinking, like how obedient students studies in school never knowing another method of doing something until the teacher introduces it to them. A good example a person not being limited would be Bruce Lee. He saw that he disagreed with some of the ways wing chun worked so he started to find ways of changing it to his heart’s content. So to wrap it up martial arts is a way to understand one’s body. If one isn’t able to understand the body then there is no control over it.
PS: I apologize if i offend anyone. I just wanted to express my opinion that a weapon is only as good as the user. (In short)
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