This is a very compelling quote from an article by He Jing-han on Wang. I think it will be controversial for some, but I’m glad that He laoshi said this. I like Wang’s teachings, but I think it was a big mistake to take the xing (shape) out of xingyiquan. The yi (will) needs a form to express itself in. Wang should have known this. he was too bright a guy not to see that. His ideas about being formless came at the tail end of a long career in xingyiquan — something his students wouldn’t benefit from thanks to him.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again — training solely what a teacher teaches near the end of his life is not nearly as productive as looking at what he himself trained when he was younger. So many people get caught up in the fruit of a teacher’s practice that they totally ignore the roots, trunk, and branches. Research and non-dogmatic thinking can go a long way.
The longer a school has been growing, the greater is the content and it becomes difficult to avoid the situation arising of ‘taking cause for effect’ and ‘taking the pointing finger as the moon’. Because of this there are always people in the martial arts worlds who say “let’s break up the school” and “forms are useless”, who set up the ‘supplementary training class’ method for ‘quick training and quick application’. In the early years of the republic Wang Xiangzhai was one of these.
In Wang Xiangzhai’s time China was facing a serious challenge from foreign powers and many civil and military leaders, seeing the weaknesses of the Chinese people, thought that ‘martial arts can save the nation’. This was a popular concept at that time. From the ‘Central State Martial Arts Academy’ - which was proposed at national level down to private schools - there was entrusted the vital task of ‘strengthening the nation’ and ‘strengthening the race’. In these difficult times, the ‘ten years small achievements’ education in academies was of course, too slow to save the situation. Consequently there were some people with lofty ideals, who, one after the other advocated overthrowing traditional teaching methods and replacing them with the concept of ‘supplementary martial arts classes’. However, over half a century has now passed. So now, what has happened after Wang Xiangzhai, what has happened after Sun Lutang? What were the achievements of the ‘supplementary martial arts classes’ after this concerted effort by the whole nation and people?
Translators note: Supplementary schools were introduced to China in the 1930s. Designed as private schools outside the formal education system, they specialised in teaching extra skills such as language conversation. This institute is similar to the ‘crammer’ schools in western society, which aimed to produce quick results without following the full traditional curriculum.
26 responses so far ↓
1 zenmindsword // Apr 23, 2007 at 1:05 pm
kinda reminds me of bruce lee and his notion of forms as swimming on dry land
yet ironically bruce lee too trained forms a lot early on……..
2 Hermann // Apr 23, 2007 at 3:01 pm
Yeah, only by training your forms a lot, one can reach a more formless state.
From the simple to the complex, from the form to the formlessness.
It seems that there is no real shortcut, no secrets as ZMQ put it, only bitterness and that for many days and years.
3 baichi // Apr 23, 2007 at 4:00 pm
I think that is a very important and often neglected point. I would even go further (and thereby make it more controversal) and say that if want to develop a teacher’s skills you should follow the path of martial arts he took.
Quite often you see a teacher who excels at one art he studied for quite some time (lets say some southern style or tanglangquan for example). He (or she) started with this style and developed serious gongfu. For that person, it is quite easy to take up other training methods, different forms and apply them. So they learn and practice Taijiquan, Baguazhang and various other things and make great use of it. But when they try and teach this methods, the students make no progress at all, because they lack the same foundation the teacher had. He/she always perceived these training systems from the point of view of the style he/she originally learned. That’s why it is not easy to assess someone’s real understanding of a certain training method. Just because someone can really ‘kick ass’ doesn’t mean he necessarily understands a certain training method…
4 zenmindsword // Apr 23, 2007 at 5:28 pm
great point baichi but there is a certain limitation to this.
firstly, how can we be sure that the style that the teacher claimed he started out with is the style he really started out with.
secondly, even if that is indeed the style he started out with he may have studied a few variations and only mentioned those variations he didn’t mind people knowing. i know of a late master in guangzhou who actually had 3 teachers but he named only 2.
thirdly, learning the style may not help as much because in some ways it also depends on who is teaching it. even within a lineage some teachers may have a better understanding than others. sometimes its a matter of training. sometimes its a matter of transmission of knowledge that account for this difference.
this is why if i want to learn something nowadays i would just learn from teachers who are specialists in that field which basically means he should not be a master of system A but also teaching system B, C, D………Z. because this would mean that he is teaching system B using his fundamentals of system A in which case its better to just learn his system A in the first place
5 baichi // Apr 23, 2007 at 7:37 pm
You are right about that, sometimes teachers do not tell the students everything about their own path for various reasons.
Even in China it is not that uncommon that after some time, student and teacher have serious misunderstandings and don’t get along with each other very well, so the student might later not tell anyone about this particular teacher of his.
I was thinking along the lines of judging for yourself what path a teacher might have taken.
This is why it is so difficult for beginning students to choose a teacher and a training method that suits their own goals. Once you have a certain amount of experience, you might be able to tell what area a teacher is proficient in and where his skill came from.
Also, just so that I am not misunderstood, I’m not saying that this phenomenon is a bad thing. On the contrary, I think it is quite natural, only most people are not aware of it. If you excel at Taijiquan, learning Bagua, Xingyi and similiar things might be of great help for you - but teaching these things to students is an entirely different question.
Part of the problem is the focus on styles and names. In former times, people usually did not look for a teacher teaching a certain style, but for the teacher with the highest level of skill. So if you wanted to learn from him, you would learn whatever he would teach you. And if this teacher started (for example) with shuaijiao, you would learn that first and then the other things he learned. On the other hand, such a lack of lucency would make it easier for frauds to exploit beginners…
6 wujimon // Apr 23, 2007 at 8:33 pm
Great post and commentary. This reminds me of learning aikido back in the day. Ppl are being taught the epitome of O’Sensei training without really building the body and skill required to fully perform it. He went thru a lot of bitter training in jujitsu and sword work before getting to where he’s at.
This is a question I tend to ask myself a lot. Can I expect miracle results without putting time in the bitter sweetness?
7 Michelle de Vries // Apr 23, 2007 at 11:12 pm
This is a good article which puts to words some ideas that many of us (I’m sure) have had from time to time. I agree with Mr.He’s article essentially 100%
It’s important to listen to the teacher’s advice and not necessarily follow exactly what they do. As important, use our own brains a bit too.
8 Jose de Freitas // Apr 24, 2007 at 1:28 am
My own teacher here in Portugal is exactly the example of this. He trained Long Fist and Eagle Claw in the old traditional way, meaning “he ate bitter for four years” before being introduced to more advanced forms, training, weapons, etc… Nowadays, he usually mystifies his students by just being so good at everything he has learned since then, including Xingyi, Bagua, Snake Fist, etc… Most of his students can’t replicate his ability and power.
I am not saying they need to go through the exact same training he did, holding increasingly heavy jars in eagle grasping, doing hours of Ma Bu or whatever. But they would need to “eat bitter” too by becoming really good at one of the things he teaches them, whatever it was, and they would need to replicate some of the “supplementary” training that prepares the body to be able to handle the forces of kung-fu.
Once you develop internal power at anything (meaning some sort of spiral-silk-reeling ability, whatever form it takes depending on the actual art), then most other arts fall easily into place. About four years ago (so he was 54 then - he is 59 now) he decided he would learn some Tong Bei, and every time he goes to China, once a year, he goes and learns some from a teacher in his hometown. The fact is, he is becoming quite good at it!
Probably no one of Wang Xiang Zhai’s students went through Wang’s exact experience, but also, may not have been able to replicate the intensity of his initial training. Much like I imagine few of O’Sensei’s students went and banged their heads 1000 times per day against a slab of stone as he did! It is (IMHO) easier to be soft after you’ve done the really hard training! Which is why I stick to Xingyi and probably won’t ever amount to too much in Taiji!
9 Myles // Apr 24, 2007 at 4:54 am
I am an Yiquan practioner so perhaps you can accuse me of a certain bias. Still, I believe that this commentary expresses certain misconceptions about Wang Xiangzhai and Yiquan and likewise the posts that have followed it.
As a consequence I would ask that you read the following piece by Tu-Ky Lam on his impression of 3rd generation Yiquan master Yao Chengrong: http://www.geocities.com/tukylam/yaocheng.html.
Tu-Ky Lam, as I’m sure many of you know, is a well established author and has an impeccable lineage in Chen Taiji as a student of Ma Hong. I believe thus that he is in a perfect position to judge whether or not Yiquan has any merits and I would ask that you allow his testimony to carry some weight in this discussion.
Thank you
A fan of this blog
10 chessman71 // Apr 24, 2007 at 10:12 am
Myles,
Welcome to the blog.
The page you mentioned appears to be down.
I certainly think highly of Wang and Yiquan. But I see what he taught as being more useful in xingyiquan. XYQ is very simple already and is one of the least form reliant styles of CMA that I’ve ever studied. In fact, all the forms pretty much repeat the five elements and 12 animals, just in different ways that students may not be able to find on their own.
Considering this nature of XYQ, I have always felt it was a grave error on Wang’s part to cut the techniques out of the XYQ and call it Yiquan. You simply have to have some techniques to express the jins. I consider this a big drawback in Yiquan and notice that the Yiquan curriculm seems to get bigger every year. That may be due to a growing awareness of the need for techniques.
11 Myles // Apr 24, 2007 at 4:12 pm
Dear Chessman
I am unaware of the Yiquan curriculum being significantly enlarged. My teacher visits Yao Chengguang in Beijing annually and I haven’t noticed anything. The main developments since Yao Zongxun’s time appear to have been in adding to Yiquan’s sensitivity drills.
I have taken the liberty to paste Tu Ky Lam’s article in full as you were unable to access it. I hope that he does not mind:
—-
Yao Cheng-Rong and Yiquan
By Tu-Ky Lam
Master Yao Cheng-Rong
In order to do a research on Yiquan, I made a trip to Beijing, China in June 2005 to see Master Yao Cheng-Rong, founder and head coach of the Zhongyi Martial Arts Academy.
Yao Cheng-Rong is one of the 3rd generation Yiquan masters. He began to learn Yiquan at the age of 9 with his father Yao Zongxun, who was one of the top students of Yiquan founder, Wang Xiangzhai. At the age of 53, Yao Cheng-Rong has over 40 years of experience with Yiquan. He first helped his father teach Yiquan. Ten years ago, he founded his own training school, and has since trained about 10,000 people, of whom many are now Yiquan teachers.
What has struck me most about Yao is that he is very humble and polite, even to his own students. The next thing is his power and skill. He has the strong power to send a much bigger person than he off flying. In push-hands, he can suck in his opponent who cannot escape no matter how hard he tries. Most of his opponents (in push-hands) find it hard to stand firmly on the ground and have to move around as he wishes and then get thrown off balance. His controlling technique is incredible. He can make you go left, right, front or back as he wishes and there is nothing you can do about it. He can spin you like a top or throw you off balance and then quickly hold you back so that you will not fall or get injured. In other words, his push-hands skill is so good that he can play around with you in the same way a cat does to a mouse.
Master Yao’s frankness is also very impressive. He frankly states in his website1 that he will not hide any secrets from his students and he means it. He showed me clearly how “Hun-yuan li” (whole body force) is produced and answered to my satisfaction any questions that I asked him. I mentioned to him about the conservatism of some teachers. He said it was not because they did not want to teach you but because they did not know how. Anyone who had accepted a student’s tuition fee would always try to teach his students something. This may be the case with teachers like him.
The majority of Master Yao’s students are locals, but there are also some foreign students in his classes. Some of them come from Germany and France while others from Switzerland and the United States. Master Yao does not speak English. The foreigners learn by watching and copy what master Yao does. In some classes, some local students who can speak English help with the translation. The foreign students are very impressed with Master Yao’s skill and learn a lot from him.
Introduction to Yiquan
What is Yiquan? It is a relatively new style of Chinese martial arts based on Xingyi quan2, but also taken into its system the best elements of Taijiquan, Bagua zhang and other styles. Taiji, Xingyi and Bagua practitioners can often relate themselves to Yiquan because they can see something similar to their own practice in Yiquan.
The most distinguished characteristic of Yiquan is that it does not have routines because they are considered to be a waste of time. Wang Xiang-zhai said routines are useless in self-defence. Teachers teach a lot of routines so that they can make money out of their students.
What do Yiquan students learn then? From day one they are taught various standing postures to improve their health and fitness and also develop their internal strength. Wang said the main purpose of practicing Yiquan is for health, fun and self-defence. Standing postures are the foundation of Yiquan training. Yiquan practitioners spend about an hour a day doing standing postures called Zhan-zhuang in Chinese.
Zhan-zhuang is very simple and effective. It can improve our health quickly, and is suitable for people of all ages. Just stand half an hour a day and you will see the result in six months: cold and flu will almost disappear, your mind is clearer, you eat better and sleep better, and more importantly feel more relaxed and happier. No stress, fear, or worries can bother you. Zhan-zhuang improves both our physical and mental wellbeing quicker than anything else can.
Zhan-zhuang is also indispensable for all internal martial arts systems. People who practice Taijiquan, Xingyi quan or Bagua Zhang without doing Zhan-zhuang will find that after ten or twenty years of practice their form is still empty because they do not have internal power. The only way to make up for it is: stand, stand and stand. That is the reason why in Yiquan classes you can often find people who have learned Taijiquan or other internal styles happily learning Yiquan3.
Yiquan students do not stand all the time in their training. Once they have gained some internal strength, they will put it into use in push-hands and sparring. Before they take part in these, they practice a few simple movements that are useful in pushing hands and fighting. These exercises are called “shi li” (moving or testing your energy) and “fa li.”4
All “shi li” movements are done slowly and gently. They look like Tai chi but are much simpler. For example, there is the “push the water” movement where your hands from a wide open positions on both side of your body move toward the front of your chest, and then move them back to the starting position. Other useful movements are “throwing a ball” (pao chiu), “splitting” (fen gua) and “spinning” (xuan fa) shi-li. These are the basic techniques used in push-hands to control or unbalance our opponents before throwing them out. Like Taijiquan, the shi li movements are beneficial to our health.
There is a lot of difference between Yiquan and Taijiquan push-hands. Firstly, Yiquan does not have many push-hands patterns. They do only two kinds of push-hands: single and double push-hands. The single push-hands looks like Taiji single push-hands but with smaller circles. When doing this kind of push-hands, the students’ or practitioners’ arm is always maintained in the “Embracing-a-Tree” posture and will not let it collapse. They always try to guard their center line from attacks. They will change the angle of their arm to let the incoming force go downward to avoid the danger of getting pushed over. This is to neutralize. After this, they will move to an attacking position by applying force pointing to the opponent’s center. And the opponent will do the same drills.
The other arm that is not in contact with the opponent will still be held in the embrace a tree position to guard an elbow strike from the opponent or push the opponent when the chances arise. They often push the opponent with both hands when doing single push-hands.
In double push-hands, they will make their right hand (fore-arm, to be more exact) stick to the opponent’s left hand, and their left hand to the opponent’s right hand. At the start, they hands move in circles similar to what Taiji practitioners do. But soon afterwards, they apply force pointing to the opponent’s center and try pushing from any angle that is favorable to them, aiming to control, unbalance and finally throw out the opponent. The techniques used are totally different from those used in Taijiquan.
Taiji practitioners will find Yiquan practitioners use a lot of force to attack or deflect, which they are not used to. Some Taiji practitioners comment that Yiquan practitioners use force against force. I think Yiquan people do use force to attack and redirect incoming force, but not use force against force.
Before Yiquan students start to spar with each other, they are taught some punches and then stepping. Stepping is important because it can put you in a good position to defeat your opponent. The most basic stepping is “mud walking,” where we stand firmly on one leg and lift the other up as if we were lifting our foot from mud and move it slowly forward. After putting this foot down, the other foot is lifted up and moved forward in the same manner. The other stepping is: stepping backwards, turning around, stepping forward like a worm, and “circle walking.” The stepping evolves from Bagua zhang but is done differently.
Then students are also taught some punches such as zuan quan (drilling fist), zhai quan (punching down), pao quan (cannon fist, which has been modified to called straight punch that is not so straight), beng quan (crushing fist), pi zhang (splitting fist), etc. which derive from Xingyi quan Five Element Fist.
They also practice some kicks too. I was somewhat surprised to find that we have these kicks in Chen style Taijiquan. For example the low kick to the ankle in “Pounds the Mortar”, the kick in “Wade Forward” and “Kick with the Heel”. They also have similar power discharge movements too. All of these make me think I am practicing Taijiquan and Xingyi quan.
Without the burden of learning and doing the routines, Yiquan students and practitioners can concentrate on standing to develop their internal strength and then use it in self defence. It is a shortcut to learning internal martial arts.
Conclusion
In short, there are six major parts in Yiquan training: standing, moving energy, discharging power, stepping, push-hands and sparring. Breath control or yelling technique, which is exhaling with sound when discharging power, is similar to what some Chen Taiji practitioners do when discharging power.
People may think Yiquan only suits young people who are interested in martial arts. But that is not the case. Wang Xiang-zhai said, “Fighting is the last and so the least important purpose of Yiquan.”
Yiquan movements are as gentle as Taijiquan, but its benefits to health are at least as great as Taijiquan, if not greater. Its movements are much simpler and much less physically demanding than Taijiquan. You can stand and do a few movements till you are over 90 years old, but you probably cannot complete the whole Taiji routine at that age.
Yiquan was invented from other styles of marital arts. Its no nonsense approach to learning martial arts provides a strong base (internal power) to develop people’s martial skill and so can be used to great advantage by other internal stylists. I find Yiquan supplements Taijiquan training extremely well as it concentrates on the foundation (standing, and moving energy) and the application (push-hands and sparring) of martial arts while Taijiquan’s major concern is in the routines.
Endnotes
http://www.yq-zywg.com. This is a Chinese website. Click at the language, say English, near the bottom of the home page, you wish to read. The English site is being developed.
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I tend to think Yiquan is a new generation of Xingyi Quan. The family history is like this: Xinyi quan – Xingyi quan – Yiquan.
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In one of Master Yao’s classes, there is a Chen style Taijiquan and Liang style Bagua zhang teacher. He has been in this class for over a year. He is quite a character, who has visited and tested many Taiji masters and Yiquan teachers. 15 months ago, he rang Master Yao and said, “I have learned Taijiquan and Bagua zhang for many years. I have seen quite a few masters in order to improve my skill. None are very good. Are you good enough to teach me and are you willing to teach me without any reservation?” so he had an appointment to see Master Yao and had a push-hands contest. He was impressed by Master Yao’s skill and decided to learn Yiquan from him.
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“Fa li” means discharging power. “Fa li” movements are “shi li” done with speed and force near the end of the moves. When a practitioner discharges power, he lifts his head top up and moves it forwards. His torso, hips and legs also move forwards to propel his arms. His feet push hard into the ground. His back leg pushes forwards while the front leg pushes into the ground. Force is used only at the point of contact.
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12 Jose de Freitas // Apr 26, 2007 at 6:29 am
Myles, in my post I didn’t say that Yiquan doesn’t have its merits, But I did say (or imply) something which would be familar to Aikido practitioners. Despite the fact that no one denies that there are many good Aikido players, and that it is a very good martial art, and effectice, it is the general consensus that no one approached O Sensei’s level. The same applies to Yiquan or many of its branches (ie Taikiken etc.). There are good practitioners, and what is more, there are many practitioners of other martial arts that have benefitted tremendously from Yiquan training. But it is consensual (I believe?) that no one approached Wang’s level. Why is that? He was a prolific writer, and therefore there are many clues and pointers to his methods. This is a sincere question. I honestly would love to know why. Were his abilities inflated after he died? Maybe so, but they should still be awesome.
I stand by my remark that some curriculums may be hard to grasp if you start straight out with them without going to preliminary trainings that may have strongly influenced the creation of those curriculums.
Best
13 Myles // Apr 26, 2007 at 8:47 am
According to what I’ve read Sun Lu’tang pushed hands with Zhao Daoxin in the house of Qian Yantang (Guo Yunshen’s student) at a banquet for Xingyi masters in Shanghai and lost. It is also said that in Shanghai in the late 20’s four of Wang’s students Han Xingqao, Zhao Daoxin, Zhang Changxin and Gao Zhengdon were known as the four diamond warriors. After Wang moved to Beijing he issued an open challenge in 1939 in the ‘Shibao’ newspaper. If challengers beat one of Han Xingqao, Hong Lianshun, Yao Zongxun or Zhou Ziyan they could face Wang. All failed. Does this mean the students had reached the level of the master or later did?
Honestly, I dont know. Thats why I pasted Tu-Ky Lam’s testimony so that the posters here could make their own decision. Tu-Ky Lam, I thought, as an accredited author and a student of a renowned Chen Taiji practioner, Ma Hong, should be in a good position to judge the skills of Yao Chenggrong and the worth of Yiquan as a whole. This is not a story that has come down in Yiquan lore but the testimony of someone who is very much alive and having been a pupil of Ma Hong knows what internal skill really is. What he says in paragraph 3 of his piece “Yao Chengrong and Yiquan”, to me, is evidence that what skill the foremost practioners of Yiquan have it doesn’t fall into the middle of the road category.
14 Formosa Neijia - Exploring Taiwan’s Martial Arts » TK Lam on Yiquan // Apr 26, 2007 at 1:55 pm
[...] He Jing-han on Wang Xiang-zhai [...]
15 thomas // Jul 7, 2007 at 2:49 pm
“According to what I’ve read Sun Lu’tang pushed hands with Zhao Daoxin in the house of Qian Yantang (Guo Yunshen’s student) at a banquet for Xingyi masters in Shanghai and lost. It is also said that in Shanghai in the late 20’s four of Wang’s students Han Xingqao, Zhao Daoxin, Zhang Changxin and Gao Zhengdon were known as the four diamond warriors. After Wang moved to Beijing he issued an open challenge in 1939 in the ‘Shibao’ newspaper. If challengers beat one of Han Xingqao, Hong Lianshun, Yao Zongxun or Zhou Ziyan they could face Wang. All failed. Does this mean the students had reached the level of the master or later did?”
Funny how Zhao Daoxin, frequently regarded as Wang’s most martially-accomplished student, went on to develop a very complex form that is at the heart of his “xinghuizhang” martial system that he created later on.
16 chessman71 // Jul 7, 2007 at 8:02 pm
Tom,
Just a small note: it appears to be “xin” instead of “xing.” So the name is xinhuizhang in pinyin. If I’m wrong please correct me, but I believe the literal translation is heart (xin) returning (hui) palm (zhang).
17 Yimi // Jan 31, 2008 at 7:31 am
Or, it could just be a case of all the past wrong turns claiming credit for getting you to the destination in the end.
Sounds to me like forms people leeching off Wang’s successes, as if the wrong turns have a claim on the right destination when it is finally found.
As Wang said, the forms weren’t even there at first - the real traditional style isn’t the forms, but what existed before.
And, after generations of forms, CMA is now the laughing stock of the martial arts world. Well done.
18 Dave Chesser // Jan 31, 2008 at 8:07 am
Yimi,
The problem as I see it is that Wang came from xingyiquan — a style that isn’t known for being weak despite having several forms in the curriculum. It’s not forms that make CMA a laughing stock.
19 wayne hansen // Jan 31, 2008 at 1:55 pm
when i first met my teacher he said that he could take any aspect of the art and teach me the
entire art through that one aspect.
however my appreciation would be the poorer.
if the entire banquet is layed out why insult the chef by not trying each dish.
it may be the dish we neglect that has the most nutritional value.
20 Yimi // Jan 31, 2008 at 11:01 pm
If the reasoning is true, that “Quan” is itself an essence, or core ability, then why worry about any form or forms at all?
Why cling to lineage, forms, names, styles, masters, arts?
What is it that clings? It can only be the ego - which brings us back the ancient ideas on martial arts; get over the ego to see it. We all have an ego, and it can be a great benefit, but it can also be a stumbling block. Wanting to be “part of a lineage” or style, and wanting to defen our style or lineage, is all about the ego wanting to belong.
I did that for so long, I can’t expect you to do anything but walk your path and come to your own conclusions - the best way, of course. But I do believe that in the end if we honestly ask ourselves what we are training for, it often isn’t to truly find the essence of Quan itself. Which brings us back to Wang, because he is telling us that those who aren’t interested in that mislead us, when really they shouldn’t have a say.
Wang’s coming from Xing Yi means that Xing Yi was part of his journey, not the destination. Perhaps the real question is only about how long, or difficult the journey is going to be. At some point, to emulate Wang, you have to let go of the road travelled, and be where it took you.
CMA is a lughing stock because it produces no fighters capable of standing in the world arena of top level fighting anymore - apart from San Shou - but doesn’t San Shou follow many of the directions of Wang? Stripping away form, etc., and doesn’t Yiquan provide San Shou players from its gyms in many cases?
It’s never about form - that’s a surface issue - it’s about you, and what you want to achieve, because the “essence” is in you, not in any art. What matters is how you access it - and that may mean stripping away other people’s movements which they imposed on you. Or it may not. That’s my opinion, right or wrong - we each only have ourselves to trust - but isn’t that what Wang advocated? Proceeding via intuition?
21 Dave Chesser // Feb 1, 2008 at 10:05 am
Yimi,
I’ll respond in today’s post.
22 taijiquestion // Feb 1, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Swords and swordplay are a laughing stock in the world of firearms and explosives.
That doesn’t erase the past history of the human race as regards the sword (pre-guns); nor does it minimize one iota what is valuable about the sword and the sword arts (except in a face-off against guns, bullets, and bombs).
Perhaps on some far-off day I’ll have so much gongfu and skill that I will simply act as needed, with zero in the way of a template or “form”; yet with successful intention. I doubt it, and certainly don’t seek it. But a great form is a treasure forever; even if appreciation fades with one practitioner, it will grow with another. Unless it’s lost, dies out.
Our ancestors were workers and/or fighters all; and knew well the physical forms that promoted success and warded off failure and wasted efforts. As the lessons of Nature and the Tao were added, the forms acquired a transcendent aspect. This is all about values.
23 Dave Chesser // Feb 1, 2008 at 2:49 pm
“But a great form is a treasure forever; even if appreciation fades with one practitioner, it will grow with another.”
Well said!
24 Yimi // Feb 3, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Taijiquestion, I am not against form, only for awareness. Doesn’t the Tao Te Ching say that only in the oursuit of learning is something added every day; but in the pursuit of Tao, every day something is dropped?
I don’t want to force you on t my path - we each have our own, and I also learn things that are contained in forms - and I also think they are a treasure in their right place. I just mention out loud that Lau Tzu’s words are also a treasure.
25 taijiquestion // Feb 4, 2008 at 1:52 pm
Thanks Yimi for clarifying that point. You describe a yin-yang of seeking which sounds wise to me. Also I don’t presume to know more than someone who has studied, practiced and experimented through many years of traditional MA and IMA training, as I gather you have.
From my outsider’s perspective, I’ve always been impressed with the depth and profundity of Yiquan teachings.
26 Yimi // Feb 4, 2008 at 6:27 pm
Taijiquestion, I can gather from your reply that you are a true seeker. It is my true and sincere belief that the same principles and destinations are at the heart of taiji, yiquan and all CMA. In fact, of course yiquan was formed with the help of ideas and techniques from other styles, trying to find what it is, after al, that is the true heart of quan.
I believe that as long as we understand the destination, we can find our way there, whether through taiji, XIng Yi, Yiquan, or any of the arts.
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