http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMx_S0HzwHI
So now let’s discuss an area of Chen village taiji that I wholeheartedly approve of: their PH tournaments. I think these things are great. It’s done in live step, not fixed step (as far as I know) and the competitors have to show lots of grappling skill. Unfortunately, lots of people put these contests down.
What always strikes me about these endless arguments on competition PH is how superior the non-competing crowd usually feels about the supposedly “low-level” stuff shown in clips like this. Things like “it’s just a pushing match” are commonly heard. But how many of these so-called superior people can deal with this kind of format? Not many from my exerience.
If it’s “just a pushing match” then why don’t more traditional minded people enter and dominate the competition with there superior skills? And yet, they never do.
(An aside, I wonder how Wang Xian’s son in the clip see’s this argument? At the end of the clip, he clearly shows what techniques he used and gives examples of their usage.)
Usually the traditional artists will claim that they can’t do all of their techniques or that there are rules in such comps. Maybe the traditional arts are more deadly, but if you don’t get out there and DO IT then the traditional guys will have nothing, deadly techniques notwithstanding.
BTW, the US Army plays wargames all the time and nobody complains that they don’t actually kill the “enemy” in those games. That’s because everyone knows that it may not be totally real, but it’s as close as you can come in peace time. And wargaming DOES build skills. Sorry, but there’s simply no argument that it doesn’t.
The old push hands adage about “investing in loss” is often brought up as a reason no to participate in these events, but competitors “invest in loss” all the time. If you fight/compete, then you WILL lose and you must deal with that. Afterall, it’s LOSING that teaches you more than winning. When you lose, you WILL go back and retool your game. Winning doesn’t bring that necessity.
“Investing in loss” IMO can mean having the guts to get out there, put your stuff on the line, AND LOSE until you can make it work at a high level, ie WIN.
I would venture further to say that many who complain about the “low level” are actually avoiding investing in loss themselves — especially loss of face. They simply don’t want the fact known that they can’t deal with what’s shown in the clip above. If someone has gone through this stage of training and moved on, so to speak, to “higher level” material, then I think that’s fine. That’s the way it should be. We shouldn’t be focused on competing forever.
But to pretend that we can have taiji fighting skills without going through this kind of stuff in public or private is to live in fantasyland.
12 responses so far ↓
1 silkreeling // Mar 11, 2007 at 11:01 am
usually under non-competition environment, it is sufficient to tell the skill level of your PH opponent without all this rough handling. You can be uprooted gently and your attack being deflected without being floored and that is revealing enough.
The video clip shows the testing of skills where your opponent is actually dynamic and coming at full force and to win he has to be floored.
To me it is one step closer to an actual combat situation where all this talk about sung, yi, qi, shen, jing, 4 ounce vs 1000 pounds etc is being applied on the ground on a dynamic opponent with similar skill level.
2 ghettoracer // Mar 11, 2007 at 11:20 am
nice article. i agree 100%. although i’m a complete novice myself i’ve been exposed to lot of fairly advanced stuff. i’m glad i’m learning this the right way. i hope i build enough foundation with in about a year to appreciate all this more…
3 Chad // Mar 12, 2007 at 7:41 am
First let me clairify some of the term i’ll be using. I classify “tui shou” or push hands as the simple and very restrictive combat games that are used to bridge solo work and sparring work. They are extremely valuable and i would argue essential for actual combat skill. What I clasify the above as is wrestling. Meaning sparring without strikes.
That being said, this type of competition seems fine to me but for one thing. I don’t like the fact that you don’t have to pin your opponent. For the match to end when someone hits the ground seems a bit arbitrary to me. I mean, it is quite a bit easier to make someone fall then to actually subdue them. I have fought with people of many skill levels and I fall sometimes because I fucked up or what not. But that’s beside the point.
I like full contact or wrestling type stuff, anyone who puts this down is just self consious. I wish I could actually compete but a shoulder injury prevents me. sigh… i do still sparr (somwht like this but with strikes as well) to the chagrin of my doctor. Oh well, what can I say, it’s tons of fun.
I guess some people want to believe that Taiji is magic and that if you learn it well, you wont have to lift a finger. The thing is, you have to fight and take your lumps. period. there is no way around it. “investing in loss” is one of my all time favorite axioms to hate because people take it the wrong way most of the time. you have to lose because that is how you learn what DOESNT work and that curve is really steep.
My advice to anyone taking taiji as a martial art; try this. this is where your skills are tested. Push hands will only tell you how good you are at the game. Also, it only trains you how to fight another taiji person. Try push hands with a boxer or mauy tai.
4 Orz // Mar 13, 2007 at 10:51 am
Well, here is my personal opinion …
1. Tuishou(PH) should not be practiced for competition.
2. The practice of Tuishou(PH) is for testing one’s softness, level of relaxation and sensitivity.
3. The training of Tuishou(PH) is to develope the harmony between each part of the body and to know how to use zhengjin(整勁) excluding the hands.
4. The training of Tuishou(PH) is to develope neijiaquan’s yi and qi gongfu(意氣之功), this is very very important.
5. What kind of relationship do you believe is between Taijiquan and Taichi-Tuishou?
What do you think the real goal of the practice of Taichi-Tuishou is?
5 chessman71 // Mar 13, 2007 at 1:12 pm
Orz,
I perfectly agree with you except for number one. When you’ve acquired some degree of 2-5, then you should go out and test yourself against other people. Only then can you know your faults and progress.
6 Orz // Mar 14, 2007 at 11:51 am
chessman71,
I’m not sure about the “degree” you mentioned, is that like the color-belts in Karate, or a piece of certificate? Some Taichi schools or systems might have degrees or levels, or maybe some people mentioned about this in their books(Chen Xiaowang and Chen Zhenglei), but as far as I am concerned, this is nonsense. Basically, Taichi does not have formal-degrees.
Tuishou(PH) should not be practiced for competition. Because there are a lot of inconsequential rules in Taichi-Tuishou competition, which results in competitions being competitions of strength and not skill. So how can people test themselves against other people, if they’re just competing strength? And how can the real theory of Taichi be put in practice in such competitons? Is the meaning of real Taichiquan really only to people pushing eachother back and forth? How can people practicing for such competitions know their faults and progress if they are just practicing for the sake of competition? It’s just like some people practice Taichiquan forms for the sake of competition, and for the prize. When practicing Tuishou one should not have “winning” in mind, only then can one progress.
If you really want to test yourself against other people, then any other martial art can do. If you can play an instrument, you don’t necessarily understand music. People pushing eachother back and forth, don’t necessarily understand Taichi.
7 chessman71 // Mar 14, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Degree doesn’t necessarily mean belts or certificates. You’ve misunderstood. Degree here means “to a certain extent.” In other words, when you have some understanind of the point 2-5 that you mentioned, then you should compete against other people to test your understanding.
Orz, if people are just pushing each other back and forth then why not get out there and show them your superior skill? If PH competition taiji is just low-level nonsense, then it should be easy for you to show them how wrong they are, shouldn’t it?
The rules are more open than you think. I doubt you’ve seriously taken a look at them. I have a copy of the rules used here in Taiwan PH competitions on the blog. Do a search. I challenge you to take a look at them and tell me that NO taiji can be done within those rules.
Lastly, you say how can people who compete know their faults. HOW COULD THEY NOT? They are competing! When they LOSE it’s because they have faults that they will go back and correct. I clearly addressed this in my post above. Please go back and read what I wrote.
8 Paul // Mar 17, 2007 at 3:21 pm
Ok Chessman, you seem to be somewhat of an authority on Chen style - rate my performance. I’ve been studying for some time now in the mainland. Sorry about the low quality of the vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_GdY_zqZ-A
Cheers, Pawel
9 chessman71 // Mar 18, 2007 at 10:44 am
Paul,
I’m no authority on Chen. I’m just writing about my experiences and I hope people find them useful. I don’t have time right now to watch your vid, but I’ll try to get around to it eventually. but I likely won’t make comments about your form because you should be getting that from your teacher. Only he or she knows where you are in your training and what you should be doing at whatever stage you’re at. Welcome to the blog.
10 Paul // Mar 18, 2007 at 11:29 am
Hey Chessman, I was looking for an independant opinion of someone who’s also from the west, and who’s seen many traditional Chinese martial arts, styles, and teachers. I’m quite isolated here in Heilongjiang, and have no idea what and how my peers are learning, nor what their performances look like. The vid is an attempt at showing a little of what I’ve done, with the hope that others, such as yourself perhaps, could post your videos as well. We could then each of us see whether we’re getting quality Taijiquan education, and where we stand with respect to others. Many people post about this teacher or that teacher, this version of Taijiquan or that, this school or that one - but perhaps they should all post an example of what they learned to go along with their critisisms, suggestions, and comments? What do you think - good idea or not? If yes, then perhaps you could write a small entry on it and get people to show what they’ve learned.
Cheers, Pawel
11 chessman71 // Mar 18, 2007 at 12:56 pm
Paul,
Interesting idea, but I, personally, am not interested in doing that. I know I’m getting quality instruction because I’ve had many teachers in the past, and I can compare the ones I have now to those. I’ve also done a bit of research on the arts, so I know what I’m seeing is good according to where I want to go with my martial arts.
I would advise you to follow a similar plan to determine whether or not you’re getting quality material.
Comparing your stuff to other people’s will be confusing because different people are at different stages of development, they are studying from different teachers that emphasize different parts of the overall IMA paradigm, and they all have different goals. Some people want to fight, some want personal development ala energy work, some want to preserve a certain lineage, etc. How are you going to compare what you do to them?
In the end, vids of all my teachers are on the Intenet anyway, so there’s no need to see me personally.
Hope you see what I mean.
12 Paul // Mar 19, 2007 at 12:34 pm
No problem, I do see what you mean. Keep on studying, and posting!
Cheers, Pawel
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