So it looks like Martial Arts Planet is the place to be these days. Apparently, the Yang family isn’t happy about this clip being up on the Internet, so they decided to make a public statement. Here it is:
Yeung Family’s Tai Chi Chuan
The Yeung family’s style of Tai Chi Chuan is unique to the Yeung family. It was started by Great Master, Yeung Lu Chan, who was born over two hundred years ago, and has been passed down to family members, generation after generation to the present day. The lineage under discussion is that o f Mr Yeung Sau Chung, the eldest son of Mr Yeung Ching Po. Mr Yeung Sau Chung moved to Hong Kong with his family in 1949, and continued to dedicate his life to practicing and teaching Tai Chi Chuan until his death in 1985. Since then his family has devoted themselves to practicing and teaching Tai Chi Chuan. Mr Yeung had taught for over fifty years, and his daughter Ms Yeung Ma Lee, taught for over twenty years. Over these seventy years, they both have taught many students. Their method of teaching is personal and individualized. Through this methodology, they have employed various teaching approaches that take into consideration an individual’s learning level, capabilities and physique.
It is important to clearly define the different categories of learning more fully:
Category one is family. Yeung family members are taught the complete body of knowledge. In the family, the methods and formulas are observed most strictly, and the teaching methods employed are quite severe. While all family members learn, not all like teaching and not all take disciples.
Category two is disciple. Generally, a student is required to spend a specific amount of time studying with the teacher before being considered for discipleship. Students are accepted as disciples based on several criteria. The disciples must have aptitude and possess virtues such as honesty, kindness and loyalty to the Yeung’s family. Once accepted, they would acquire from the Master skills that lead to a level of comprehension that far exceeds that of the students so that they can help the Master to spread the Yeung Family’s Tai Chi Chuan.
A disciple is allowed to use the Yeung family’s name when teaching. Disciples can choose to take their own disciples. All disciples are listed in the chart of School of Yeung’s style of Tai Chi Chuan but not in the Yeung’s family lineage despite the fact that some people shamefully promote themselves this way.
Category three is student. With permission from the Yeung’s family students could teach using the Yeung’s family name.
The family itself has published books about Tai Chi Chuan. One must understand that books only serve as a guide; you could only learn the art well with instructions from the Yeung family. Recently a movie of Mr Yeung Sau Chung surfaced on the internet (without family permission). The same principle applies. It may be the best form one has ever seen, but without the underlying formula, it is impossible to learn from it.
There are a lot of claims by some people saying they are practicing the “real” Yeung style, or they possess the “forgotten secrets” etc. It is absolutely important that the followers should exercise the utmost caution to discern the authenticity of these claims and whether the martial art is appropriate for their physique, otherwise it is not only a waste of time and money but also it might cause serious injury. Yeung style Tai Chi Chuan is both an extraordinary defensive art as well as an unparalleled health maintenance exercise. The principles and applications are only as valuable and effective as the source from which they spring. Know your source.
Wow, where to begin? The main problem is that Yang style taiji is no longer unique to the Yang family and hasn’t been for some time. The art got away from them and now they are trying yet another market grab with this statement. But it won’t work because the best Yang style taiji people aren’t named Yang. That must be causing an awful lot of pain for them.
Second, only Yang family members are taught the complete art? Who on earth would be willing to study with the Yangs then? Would you be willing to study with someone that is going to deliberately withhold the best stuff? I wouldn’t do it. Notice that to be a disciple, you have to prove yourself and give everything you got. But that won’t be fully reciprocated, even if you do.
About the clip of Yang Sau-chung, if that is the “real” Yang family style then why is it so different from the “real” Yang family style of Yang Zhen-duo? Is someone playing bait and switch?
Someone should tell the Yangs what the rest of us know already: when you’re really good at taiji, you don’t have to issue lame statements that supposedly remind everyone how good you are. If the official Yang family wants to once again represent the pinicle of their art, then they will have to go out and earn it just like everyone else. Notice that the Fu’s and Dong’s don’t need to issue statements.
Have the Yang’s sent anyone to the Chen family push hands tournaments? Have any of their disciples competed at A Taste of China or even Taiji Legacy? If a judo player with a few months of Cheng Man-ching taiji under his belt can successfully compete against the Chens then what is stopping the Yangs?
The answer is obvious.
47 responses so far ↓
1 tim // Dec 9, 2006 at 12:26 pm
Exactly. The race to the bottom has started– either you teach what you know, or no one will learn from you. Especially when they can go somewhere else and learn.
It’s like Chinese restaurants. Once one starts to undercut, the rest of them have to, and its a race to the death to see who can cut prices without either going out of businesss, or having quality go to crap.
But in this case the coin of the realm, so to speak, is information. So either teachers give it out, or students will go elsewhere.
2 zenmindsword // Dec 9, 2006 at 6:19 pm
making claims without some supporting reasons is so passe. at the very least say something like we are the authentic yang family because reasons (a), (b), ….. (z) if sending disciples out to challenge matches to make a name is not their cup of tea. not all of us are intellectually challenged and need some sense to be beaten into us to be able to discriminate. we have brains too. like one of our singapore movies title goes “i not stupid” (http://www.hkflix.com/xq/asp/filmID.3179/qx/details.htm)
3 chessman71 // Dec 9, 2006 at 7:38 pm
Zen,
Haha! Your comment made my night. “I not stupid.” I’ll have to look that one up.
4 Than Lee Hean // Dec 11, 2006 at 3:27 pm
What is secret is not secret in Youtube
5 David Schneider // Jan 10, 2007 at 9:44 pm
Bravo!
Mary Yang is a lovely person and her push hands is excellent. Master Ip’s students who still live and practice in Hong Kong are wonderful and their skill is great. But when you meet them they quite humble. I wonder what the motivation was for putting that statement online. I donot see Mary anymore so I will not be asking her. As far as Disciple stuff goes I never met Yang Sau Chung but I did meet Master Ip and he was incredible. He did not teach many people and did not care about his fame. Othere people care more about his fame and skill than he did which is the way of quality people.
As I said Mary is lovely. She also said she likes low profile so this is all very curious.
6 chessman71 // Jan 11, 2007 at 7:36 am
David,
So this is out of character for them? If you find any more info, please let me know. Do you know anything about the guy that posted the letter in the first place? perhaps he’s not who he says he is.
7 David Schneider // Jan 11, 2007 at 11:42 am
Hi,
Yes for Mary it sounds of character because she told me herself six years ago she likes a low profile and her Tai Chi can spread through her students. But maybe she has had something happen to warrant this shift? Like many people have commented on other sites quality will spread on its own. No need for the individual to defend their art. She can spread her art through Jim Uglow or others but that is not studying with Mary that is studying with Jim. Either are good choices. But Jim would tell you I think he is not Mary.
As far as I know which is on the Internet, Steve Rowe is a student of Jim Uglow. Jim is a nice fellow. I think their enthusiasm for Mary might cloud their judgment about their place in the Tai Chi world. I have many friends who are connected to various Tai Chi lineages not just Yang Style. Each has their own perception about the quality of their instructor and knowledge. That is all fine. I have met many substantial martial artists in Asia through my networks of my company who are incredible fighters and I always say when the quality of training and fighting arguments come up, “If you want to discuss fighting and lineage put the people in a room and let them fight for real.” Then at that moment in time you will know who is better.” Otherwise it is all talk. You know and who really cares about that in 2007?
As an example, my friends who study with the Chen family have no such problem with access from what they have said. They have access and just have to pay the rate of the day. Remember the Chen family helped the Yang family. I don’t dispute who is better because I have seen many great people in many great styles by actually living in Asia for 6 years now. Unless they put their hands on you then you cannot feel their power anyway. So talk is cheap.
I have to say I really like Mary and anyone who gets in front of her will enjoy the experience. I think access to her should be greater and that of course is very political. But people can find her on their own as some people have without the aid of me or Jim Uglow or any of the other publicized teachers. Mary can certainly speak for herself when she chooses to and can say yes or no to a student. As far as saying that the Yang Family holds all the secrets: what a way to share an art. If it is the ultimate exercise then why not teach it more openly. Would Dr Salk hide his vaccine from people who wanted to take it for Polio? He did not and he was rewarded properly for it. Many times more than the Yang Family has been for their art. I would encourage all teachers and family heads to be open. They will in fact get more business not less if that is the concern. I am sure Mary knows a great deal and more than many people are aware of. It is up to her to share it with who ever she wants to. It is her life. I do not get concerned over statements by her or anyone on the Internet about training. If someone really wants great training and seeks it long enough they will find it. By limiting access to a teacher then the teacher is the one who looses in the end. The lineage thing is fractured and falling apart. Thank God. Let the quality of a person’s Tai Chi stand on its own. Forget about titles when you meet people. Watch how they move. What is it like to study with them? What can they teach you? The teacher is there to guide and nourish the student. The world has changed. In Asia now the Chinese laugh and say the westerners are more Chinese then they are. The statement in itself is quite telling about how the Chinese have updated their perspective on life and their arts which they have done for many more generations than most cultures. It is 2007 not 1760. No need to burn incenses, no need to have cults about dead people. They train and have normal lives. That being said all the people arguing should enjoy their Tai Chi and their teachers and the teachers should take note that the students are the ones that propel the art forward in the final analysis. It s not worth debating. Spend time practicing instead.
8 chessman71 // Jan 11, 2007 at 1:54 pm
David,
I hope you don’t mind, but I’d like to make your comment into a post. I sometimes do this with comments that I find particularly insightful. It will show up tomorrow with a few of the names edited out.
9 chessman71 // Jan 11, 2007 at 1:55 pm
Thanks for taking the time to write all this BTW. Your thoughts are much appreciated.
10 David Schneider // Jan 11, 2007 at 5:42 pm
Sure go ahead.
11 Formosa Neijia - Exploring Taiwan’s Martial Arts » More thoughts on the Yang family statement // Jan 12, 2007 at 7:34 am
[...] More thoughts on the Yang family statement By chessman71 The following is from a comment on the post regarding the Yang family statement a while back. As you guys can tell, I sometmes like to reward particularly insightful comments with a post of their own because they might say something we should all be aware of. [...]
12 Den // Jun 9, 2008 at 12:34 pm
The why of the statement:
“otherwise it is not only a waste of time and money but also it might cause serious injury. ”
Know your source.
13 M. Reynolds // Jun 9, 2008 at 5:44 pm
Whoah whoah whoah…I gotta jump in here and defend my peeps Dave. I’m afraid you really do have it very wrong. I’m not sure why the family i sin such a huff over this getting on the web, though I did hear via my teacher (himself a disciple of Yang-Pei Xiu Rong, wife of Yang Zhen Ji, son of Yang Cheng Fu. He’s also grand-student of Yang Ma Li) a while back that the family was pretty pissed about this. The problem in Yang-land is that we’ve got 1) a big stylistic split internally (due to ZMQ) that causes any number of problems (like the current standard bearer, Yang Zhen Duo, doing a style that doesn’t have a whole hell of a lot in common with his father, uncle, and grandfather’s methods) and that 2) the Yang style has the peculiar problem of an unbelievable amount of people world-wide doing something that only superficially resembles their art but still gets called Yang style (ever see a YMCA TJQ class? )
I think only Jeet Kune Do has as many people worldwide doing wtfever they feel like and getting by on the Yang name. It’s really kind of crazy.
Back to the first difficulty-I don’t claim to be an insider on this and I’m not willing to dig too hard into my sources, but from what I understand Zhen Duo is doing a style that is msotly from Zheng Man Qing and NOT what Cheng Fu did, or his father and uncle Shou Zhong and Zhen Ji did. The public party line is that Zhen Duo is the standard bearer, his stuff is what we do. Privately however, my understanding is that if you are doing the FAMILY style, then you’re doing either Shou Zhong or Zhen Ji’s methods.
Now, I do Shou Zhong’s method, and if you’ve seen someone do it once, you can pick out a YSZ student at an instant glance because its got some obvious hallmarks. I can sort of see the need for warning that you can hurt yourself as that style takes some pretty serious strength to get to a functional level when you first get started. Absolute hell on your lumbar and leg muscles. However, I really think this is mostly just “look, stop using our name to get paid/famous” because there is no way in hell you can do this stuff right strictly by watching the video. Even some of the basic techniques are invisible on film. I’ve only been made privy to a couple of the secrets (very VERY beginning ones I assure you) and again, they’re absolutely invisible. You would have to either be shown them or have them very very clearly explained to even be aware of their existence.
Think of it this way: what happens if I go out and get Chen Xiaowang’s big dvd set, study it, and then go out and start saying that I do CXW style the way he does it. How many uncountable things am I going to be missing from my form because I never trained with him or any of his students? Yet I can probably get the form to LOOK like his, enough so that I or an outsider might think I’m doing it right, because no one ever told me about the fine details. We have a real problem with this in Hebei Xingyiquan as well. People are doing what they call Hebei style Xingyiquan and its absolutely worthless. A very junior BJJ or Shaolin student could easily beat them. They think they are doing something really impressive because they’ve been TOLD XYQ is very impressive but its form is very simple and are expecting miracles to happen at some point from the simple technique they’ve learned. The truth however is that there are about 9,000,000 subtle things going on in plain sight that are nearly invisible even if you know what you’re looking for (for example, the series of difficult but nondescript looking twists of the body against itself -referred to as Dragon Body-that make up the bulk of XYQ’s trademark Half-body issuing).
Point being, I don’t feel this is a “market grab” by the Yang’s and I think you’ve jumped to a rather hasty conclusion. The peculiar problem of Yang TJQ is that there about a million asshats out there claiming to be valid and authorized Yang masters who by the same qualifications have equal right to claim that they are, in fact, valid and authorized Jedi.
As for the family keeping things from the disciples, that one I honestly don’t know about and will have to ask. There are certainly disciple secrets, maybe there are family secrets too. Shi fu is a disciple and he is without question the most bad-ass martial artist I have ever met in my life to the point where well known teachers in China and Taiwan are practically sending him embroidered invitations to come and be their disciple so he can make them look good. So I think he’s doing ok and therefore I’m not going to lose a whole lot of sleep when at such time I get discipleship I’m told “Sorry..this is only as good as you can be.”
14 Dave Chesser // Jun 9, 2008 at 6:21 pm
Yang Zhen-duo’s taijiquan looks nothing like ZMQ’s at all. They aren’t even close.
Check out this:
http://sataichi.com/compare.html
15 Yuri Snisarenko // Jun 9, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Fu Qingquan told me that Yang Zhenduo studied with his grandfather (Fu Zhongwen) for some time. However to me the way Fu family do taiji is somewhat different from Yang Zhenduo’s way in the perspective of yin-yang, square-circle interrelation that results in somewhat different body methods. Most probably Yang Zhenduo studied from his brothers as well.
16 M. Reynolds // Jun 10, 2008 at 10:30 am
Noted.
The point I should have made is that there isn’t a whole lot in common between Zhen Duo and Shou Zhong, which is odd I think.
17 Dave Chesser // Jun 10, 2008 at 6:27 pm
“…there isn’t a whole lot in common between Zhen Duo and Shou Zhong, which is odd I think.”
Yes, that is odd.
18 wayne hansen // Jun 11, 2008 at 4:32 am
do the maths chen fu died in1936.
how old were each of the sons in 1936.
19 Yuri Snisarenko // Jun 11, 2008 at 11:59 am
“Yes, that is odd.”
One should live in PRC for awhile to understand what it means to represent such an art in such a scope, to “be approved”. That will affect your idea (as a style baerer) of how the form should look like… MHO, of course.
20 John Kavanagh // Jun 11, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Hi all,
This is an interesting discussion- in particular the difference in appearance of the form of the two- if not three?- sons of Yang Cheng Fu. We have some clips of Yang Sau Chung : http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3k55c_yang-sau-cheung_creation
There may be a better version than this, but the quality is not great either way…but it shows a variation on a fairly standard Yang sequence. There are many other versions now on web of Yang form, some going back 40 + years and beyond and even some older traditional Wu forms…so, how different do they really look on the surface? I’d be grateful if anyone can string a clip or two together illustrating conparisons. Fu’s style on video doesn’t ”look that much different either does it? or…does it?
-John
21 yangchenfu2 // Jun 11, 2008 at 9:34 pm
I do study with Yang Zhan Duo and Yang Jun…I don’t think the hold the only truth, but from a postural as I tested their position are way more natural, confortable and effective than what I see in videos from YSC side of the family. Vincent Chu posture on his video is terrible, all curved, and his positions don’t seem to bee rooted at all. I repeat, it’s just my impression, and I don’t think YZD and YJ to have the only knowledge. Still when practicing this way, than on applications you will be rooted and powerful, even tho there is for sure a big different them performing the form and showing martial applications. YZD worked a lot on postural side and effects of the form, still there is nothing more close to his father pictures. Neither YSC nor YZJ are closer. YZD and FZW are close, but yet different.
So I doubt YZD form may have side effect on anyones body, still it keeps all the principle, and YJ is really powerful…As for the rest of the discussion. I leave it up to you.
22 neijia // Jun 12, 2008 at 12:07 am
Why is it that nobody has this argument about bjj having to look like what Helio Gracie’s descendents do, or judo looking like what Kano’s descendents do, or xingyi forms having to look like a specific master’s, or basketball moves having to look like Michael Jordan’s, or golf swings having to look like Tiger Wood’s? Maybe a large part of it is form-centric vs. application-centric. I assume the rest of it is sadly political and marketing and the unrealistic pressure on descendents as standard bearers. If Jordan’s or Wood’s kids have to be standard bearers for Jordan or Wood style basketball or golf, how ridiculous would that be?
23 neijia // Jun 12, 2008 at 12:08 am
P.S. Wood’s swing isn’t even always considered textbook perfect but he gets the best results so who really cares to analyze his swing to death.
24 yieldingxxx // Jun 12, 2008 at 5:02 am
Hey yangchenfu2, you should try pushing with Vincent Chu before you start publically dishing out such lame commentary on things you obviously don’t understand.
25 wayne hansen // Jun 12, 2008 at 5:14 am
these are not form based arts,they are apprenticeship based.
they are taught by working on one move continually untill perfected,the internal arts can also be taught this way.
golf and basketball are sports not ways,it matters little beyond winning and loosing as no higher state of awareness is deliberatly aimed for.
martial arts can be practiced this way but is not the tao.
train as you wish but dont feel cheated if you get what you are aiming for.
the ability to fight when young,but disillusioned ,sick and unaware in old age.
perfection of form is a vital part of an entire art.
26 neijia // Jun 12, 2008 at 9:41 am
ok but doesn’t it still seem a little as if we are watching golf masters swing with no club or ball and then comparing their form without seeing them hit the ball? i can’t see things like degree of internal hip rotation.
Jordan’s son is a good walk-on, but no master and hopefully not carrying such a heavy weight. I can’t help but feel sorry for inheritors who have to try to live up to past legends.
27 yangchenfu2 // Jun 12, 2008 at 3:49 pm
I never said Vincent Chu is not efficient…I’ve seen different masters moving and showing applications… they transmitted power also with their strong postures…legs rooted, spine in line according to the force they wanted to express. Posture is not secondary, unless you have a magical force..and I hardly believe in that…Force of internal styles is due to a very keen study of mechanical forces…I just expressed an opinion, when I see master Chu videos I don’t see all of that, but it is just my impression, an videos are not a good test. Yet, forms in martial arts are not all but very importan, transmitted from generations because of that. Tai chi Yang has a problem with the fact that form and applications in modern time have developed always more distant. Most people just want the form, so you mostly have to tech that and make it available for everyone…One last thing, as a long time basket player. I could not replicate Jordan movements, but watching him you could see and learn how harmony of movements is important, elasticity,power fantasy were is peculiar things, but he also showed how a body moving respecting armony and coordination could do anything, just as in tai chi…
28 Meow // Jun 12, 2008 at 4:55 pm
neijia, its not application centric, because with traditions, it has to be done this! way (it no longer adheres to that styles perspective on doing things (even if effective), so regarding that, you have to ask yourself, m.a. for fighting, or for tradition (and what do the variations offer)
29 tom // Jun 12, 2008 at 9:47 pm
“Yang Jun is really powerful.” That’s a curious statement.
30 yangchenfu2 // Jun 12, 2008 at 10:50 pm
What curious about?
31 yieldingxxx // Jun 13, 2008 at 12:31 am
I’ll tell you why……
The truth is, YZD and YJ, are really not known for their power and/or fajin skills; those two are more known for having emulated the look of Yang Cheng Fu’s forms from the pictures that we’ve all inherited. That, and also being the government (PRC) approved standardized WuShu for tai chi (not chuan). Yang Zhenji got much more, and especially Yang Sau Chung since he got a complete transmission from his father YCF and spent about 20 years with him. YSC had a very distinct forward leaning in his medium frame variation of his father’s form. He spent a lot of time in power mechanics and generation, including power exercises specifically for fa jin purposes. I do not believe the current Yang heads go this route.
32 yangchenfu2 // Jun 13, 2008 at 5:23 am
I don’t think that is completely correct, Yang wushu or modern Yang has nothing to do with what YJ and YZD teach. Use of weight is completely different…competition yang tai chi is not rooted at all, while teaching what they call “traditional” just to distinguish it from all the other branches of YS, they put a lot of effort in the change/use of weight for the martial value of it.
I’ve seen YJ “playing” a fa jin, and even if he wasn’t putting a serious force(he was just explaning what it could be) it was strong, and I wouldn’t want to be there getting it…YZD may not have spent as much time as YSC with his father, but from YJ you can see how good he is. Still, YSC may have been better, stronger… this I don’t know or question, just YZD wasn’t that open in teaching the application side, YJ is slowly opening…they are way back all of those who came in the US showing things and putting a long programme of study out…they don’t have videos on youtube while practicing, they just openly show the form and teach the latest YCF teached, but in seminars, if you give him time YJ shows. His push hands video is very interesting, yet it doesn’t show appl, but you can see he has it…Anyway I’m not saying they are better than any other, but still better than many thinks they are…YSC curriculum has many forms, but Yand Shao huo once asked why his form was smaller… if maybe better than the one of YCF, answered that YCF’s was the family style, what he also studied…He was just moving to a personal interpretation, but his fundamentals where in the same style practiced from YCF.
33 wayne hansen // Jun 13, 2008 at 5:38 am
you say
YZD may not have spent as much time as YSC with his father,
let us be honest how old was he in 1936 when his father died.
if he was only 6 as i calculate,who was it he learnt from.
give credit to his teachers and admit there are other valid lines of transmission outside of the family.
geff buckley the late great singer only saw his father tim once,this did not diminish his genetic gifts and hard work to develop his talent,but it did not come from personal instruction and family secrets.
if the yang family wants to be taken seriously they must lay their cards on the table.
34 yangchenfu2 // Jun 13, 2008 at 8:41 pm
For the record…YZD was 10 and YZJ was 14, YSC 24…Any way boring…My impression is that you didn’t test or see anything beside videos…It is also true that they don’t give as much programme as many, with better marketing, teachers….I didn’t know anything about MA before 9 years ago…I only studied with them, and I developed good qualities…I now train with Wing Chun friends, and they appreciate what I gaind from tai chi…that’s my experience…
35 tom // Jun 13, 2008 at 11:45 pm
hi YCF2–
Yieldingxxx touched on why I found your statement about Yang Jun to be really powerful a curious statement.
I’ve had the opportunity to visit YJ when he’s teaching. I think your characterization of YJ “playing” at applications and fajin is probably pretty accurate. YJ continues to develop his understanding and skill in taijiquan, working to improve in areas where his grandfather’s instruction and experience fell short or where YJ’s own taiji sightseeing takes him.
That is actually good to see–it is what Yang Cheng Fu had to do when his father died after YCF had abandoned the family business for awhile.
People will criticize or snipe at YJ, but I would caution them that he’s stronger and more fluid than may be apparent from his video footage. Perhaps he would have trouble handng a good high school or average collegiate wrestler of the same weight class–but so would most name-brand taiji masters today [Mario Napoli's excursion to the Wenxian tournament, Chen Xiaowang's little exchange with the xxingyi wannabe master in Taiwan, the 1992 tuishou gathering of famous-name taiji teachers recently discussed here--all are instructive].
Most people study with YJ primarily for solo form instruction, to feel a part of the lineage, and for health and a sense of community. Nothing wrong with this–YJ is carrying on YCF’s taiji legacy in the truest sense–the family business since Jianhou’s elder years has been to teach taiji publicly for health and profit [YCF and YSH were teaching at Xu Yusheng's school before their father died in 1917].
36 yieldingxxx // Jun 14, 2008 at 3:28 am
Tom makes a good point. There really aren’t many TCC masters today that could handle some young strong buck who “fights” for a living, but nevertheless, development of TCC skills can only help to one degree or another depending on the players. Also, learning the art of TCC encompases more than “just” fighting, so there are many benefits and many levels to dwell into for those so inclined. Regardless, I didn’t mean to say that YZD and YJ don’t have any skills (I’m sure they do), but at the same time, I’m more than certain that there are plenty of TCC folks out there today that are better than them, which is probably the case with anybody teaching anything these days; it’s just that in the old dayz, that didn’t seem to be the case for the most part. The heads of the family were expected to be better than most other players around, but again, that’s a different time and a different age, so perhaps we all need to put things in the proper perspective. Regarding the current Yang’s and application work, I find it very strange they don’t teach much or any of it, especially since the father (Yang Chengfu), and the oldest brother, (Yang Sau Chung), BOTH put out books on specific martial application training, and Sau Chung even went into extra variations as well as 4 corners/da lu examples in his book.
Getting back on topic, i.e. Yang Family Statement: I say if there is anything left hiding in the darkness, let’s bring to the light. Basically, nobody today studies TCC or IMA as a life and death venture like they did in the 1700’s/1800’s, so holding back and keeping secrets is just plain dumb, egotistical, self-serving, and dishonest in my opinion.
If a student gives his precious time and gives it all he’s got, and he/she is ready for more - GIVE IT!
37 Joseph T. Oliva Arriola // Jun 14, 2008 at 4:44 am
1. It’s all about fighting.
2. It’s all about sex.
3. It’s all about aha.
When the young “buck” beats me its all over. He gets my fifedom and everything that goes with it. So, I train with the constant thought of honing my skills. I train to hunt better, have more sex/health and to see more of what others do not see.
Fortunately, there are many “turfs” to aspire too. Fortunately, I need not be jealous of anyone’s success.
Instead, I can stand back and admire their accomplishments. I learn from them and “aspire”. I criticize them only as I keep in mind that these masters might be actual opponents.
As such, though I need students, it is not about the student. I learn from my students for my benefit. As I get better…there is greater possibility that they get better. They stay because I teach them to fight (physically, intellectually and spiritually)
Yet, I must continue to create greater and greater margins between my skills and their skills. Otherwise, they should go with my blessing to other teachers. Soon enough, my skills will dissipate.
Until then, I keep in mind that “my territory” must be “fought” for until the scavengers peck on my dead body.
38 wayne hansen // Jun 14, 2008 at 6:16 am
ycf 2
i go back to my boring point.
at 24 no matter what the genetic disposition it would be hard to learn the entirity of the yang system.
it is not us here making statments about who has what. it is the yang family.
so who was it that ysc learnt his art from and if he had a teacher beside his father dont you think history has a right to that information.
as for his red book of application,apart for some nice pictures of ycf i found it a great dissapointment and this may be due to the english translation.
i am not knocking the yang family,if it was not for them we would have nothing.
however if they were secure in their family art they would be more than willing to give a detailed and accurate history.
please do not leave out or trivialise the contribution of yangs other senior students and their lineages just because they are not family.
my own son is an artist and even though he trained hapkido from the age of 5 and gained many gifts from the training it is others that will inherit my martial legacy.
in d wile,s book ycf states that no teacher would hold back secrets when he finds the right student for this would only injure the teacher.
i prefer to believe that ycf like my teacher was an honest and upright man who taught with his whole heart to all who put in the work to understand a beautifull art.
39 Confusing form for function // Jun 14, 2008 at 10:14 am
[...] Comments wayne hansen on A statement from the Yang familyJoseph T. Oliva Arriola on A statement from the Yang familyyieldingxxx on A statement from the Yang [...]
40 yieldingxxx // Jun 15, 2008 at 2:38 am
Yang SauChung basically had one teacher, his father Yang Cheng Fu. But, he did get some instruction from his uncle Yang Shaohou as well. Basically, YCF taught YSC (born in 1910) from the age of 8 (1918) till Chengfu died in 1936 - that’s 18 years of in-door family training give or take, and by the time Sau Chung was 14 (1924), he was already YCF’s assistant instructor. Also, during those times as an assistant instructor he also got to work out with the other big names in that camp, namely Dong, Zhongwen, and a few other well-knowns of that time. All in all, and as the family’s inheritor of the art, it seems fairly clear that due to his age, and relation to his father, YSC got everything that YCF had to give, as well as having the good fortune to be able to work and study with some of the best around at those times in the Yang circles.
41 Hermann // Jun 15, 2008 at 9:37 am
Never met YJ, he was still not in the picture at all and probably in pampers, when I met YZD in the 90s in Shanghai with my 1st teacher Song Zhijian and his group. What ever YZD had learned from his dad and for how long, what he represented then, form- and functon-wise, was rather disappointing, he could not hold his ground with my teacher in friendly ph, his students lost in row. We also went to Yongnian, where the ZMQ pushers again met not real resistance. But I hear Yang Zhenhe (in hidden training then) has some real skills?
In the early 2000s, YZD came to southern Taiwan, with some of his better students. Again, they could not win a single phs match, fixed or moving step. And he himself refused to be touched again by some ZMQ indoors, but insisted on his nearly streched back leg, funny!
The tape of YSZ on youtube is presented by the teacher of my teacher, Wang Zihe, who originally wanted to bring YSZ to Taiwan, though the later stopped and stayed in HKK. His skills were highly regarded by Wang, who’s teacher was Lü Dianchen, who also trained with YZF, same period as YSZ and many other famous masters. “Please do not leave out or trivialise the contribution of yangs other senior students and their lineages just because they are not family.” (W. Hansen). Totally agreed!
Nowadays, family tradition does not say much. YSZs student Master Chu (England) for example, who also sees himself as the only authetic…, was highly criticised if not ridiculed for his appearance in HKK lately. The statements comming out of HKK Yang family have also been discussed widely, and my teacher has met a lot of that school on his business travels to mainland (always needing to stop over in HKK). He never was really impressed there, as he again and again was by Wang Zihe. Then there are the US based indoors of YSZ, who are highly popular for snake and tiger style variations in Germany, though I have no knowledge on them, only 3rd hand rumors. Anybody?
Anyway, family tradition is not what it used to be, even in Chen style you’ve got the same phenomenon, with some exeptions of course.
42 neijia // Jun 15, 2008 at 12:03 pm
>Nowadays, family tradition does not say much.
How could it be any different? Even the most famous martial arts clan of recent history no longer dominates the sport formats it created or made famous. Interestingly, the world already calls their art Bjj, not Gjj.
43 José de Freitas // Jun 16, 2008 at 8:14 pm
The Sufis tell this story of a holy man who is traveling through the world and takes a boat to some far away land. He is going by a supposedly deserted island when he starts hearing the muslim chant of “La illa allah” (etc, with my excuses to any muslim here, but I don’t know the exact words). He realizes that the chant is wrong, the chanter is misplacing one lailla or illalah, and decides to stop at the island. He finds a hermit who has taken a vow of living alone and singing the holy words until attaining perfection. So he corrects the hermit, tells him the right words, and is profusely thanked by the lone man. As his boat is starting to move away from the island, he is thinking “Wow, that was good. The old man was singing the wrong words, how could he have attained illumination? It is said that singing the right words can even allow you to perform miracles. I really did a good deed here!”. When suddenly, he hears shouting and screaming for him, and he sees the old hermit, running OVER water, waving his hands “Brother, what was it? I can’t remember anymore, is it laillahla, or illahlala?”.
I am all with Dave here, the art is ultimately defined by function, rather than form.
Now, I think that today, function needs to include more than just fighting (ie. health, spiritual development, whatnot), but if someone came up with it at one point, then others can come up with it in the future. We wouldn’t have all this proliferation of forms if it wasn’t so. I don’t think it’s wrong to strictly adhere to a form you’ve been handed (and someone has to do it well to keep the lineage going), but neither is it wrong to eventually change, modify or create. Should we fault Sun Lutang for creating his form, rather than sticking to the Hao form he was taught? By their rationale, the Yang family should actually be doing Chen, right? Why did Yang Luchan change what he was taught? A lot of modern “sensibilities” and preoccupations do not stand the light if we simply look at the careers and lives of the great masters of old. Few of them were really worried about doing the exact same thing they were taught and clearly were not intimidated by creating their own forms!
We all believe that “outside” form has little to tell us about the true effectiveness of a style, we all believe that there are subtle “inside” things going on which are the true “meat” of a system (if we didn’t, we wouldn’t be constantly saying how it’s impossible to learn Taiji from video, for instance). All people are somewhat different, and they change throughout their lives. How can we believe that there is only one way of doing those “inside” things to make a style effective? Are the “inside” things in Tongbei similar to Chen Taiji? Or Xingyiquan? I don’t think so, so why should we constantly think that just because someone changed a form means that he no longer has “the goods”? As I said there is such a thing as change, preferences and luck. One master may dislike backfists and feel like he should change all backfist techniques in his form to open hand chops. This will lead to many other small changes in the way the techniques are delivered, especially if said master has “true” understanding of the style. He may have been injured in his knee, requiring him to change stances. Or he may have found an alternate, equally valid way of doing “inside” things. So, in the end, the proof is in function. Again, this is not necessarily fighting only (although I agree that it has at least to be somewhat about fighting otherwise it wouldn’t be “martial” arts, although I certainly wouldn’t require a teacher to be able to “take on all comers”). I’ve been going around the martial arts world for long enough to have seen good practitioners in all styles, even those I had no respect for as a kid. More than that, I’ve frequently seen better performance of “internal” mastery from Karate masters, or practitioners of various Southern Kungfu schools, or northern Mantis systems, to give too much credence to external-internal questions.
The Yangs seem to be (IMHO) a little anal retentive about their public statements. Which seems a pity, given that they actually have a good case. But rather than “We’re the best, we’re the real deal, we’re the original form, and if you don’t do it like we do it’s not real Yang Taiji” it should be “Look guys, we’re the Yang “family”, so we should get some perks when it comes to advertising, so please don’t use our names, get some other name for your stuff, plus we think we do things in a valid way, we think our form is cool, and we thing it’s good and valuable to try to pass it on as it is, someone has to do it, and we’ve elected ourselves to do it, so tough”. I think…
44 yangchenfu2 // Jun 16, 2008 at 10:15 pm
mmm…I never thought YJ and YZD were the best, keeping magical secrets on their family art…Outside there may be great practitioners doing great internal arts developed from the Yang’s style…Just averyone says it is the “REAL”…That I have some problems with. According to YCF manuals, in my opinion, YJ and YZD kept and still keep very close to those imprintings. YSC and his students may have developed great skills, moving from that tradition…maybe great and may have understood the supreme knowledge. This I don’t know…but I’d be open to learn. Just YZD and JY are not bad at all, and I understand why they press a lot on calling what they teach as traditional family style, due to so many “Yang” schools existing. As for the statement here reported. ITT, VC and the third disciple of YSC I don’t remember the name, speak of their teachings as Yang family, but it would be better call it Yang tradition…If YSC daughters were teaching publically, they would be right, but they are not, and they respect YZD.
45 yieldingxxx // Jun 16, 2008 at 10:47 pm
For the record, I believe there are very good and highly skilled Yang practitioners out there that are not part of the Yang family (Fu’s, Tung’s, CMC lineage, etc), but we are speaking on Yang family here, so I’d like to reiterate that Yang Sau Chung (Shouzhong) had what I believe to be the last of the “real” power that we all have read about, and was the closest thing to Yang Chengfu as we were going to get in these modern days. He passed that power/methods onto his 1st and 2nd disciples (Ip Tai Tak and Chu Gin Soon who were classmates). As far as his daughter is Mary is concerned, I’ve always heard that she was good, but was not at a “martial” level of expertise such as Ip and Gin Soon (that may not be the case now in all fairness). It’s such a pity that Ip has died, and Gin Soon is retired, since I believe they are/were the last of Sau Chung’s methods, applications, and power. I once asked the Chu’s (Gin Soon/Vincent) about Sau Chung’s power, and they said once the man put his hands on you, your body became imobilized (frozen), he could stop the chi/energy in your body and set you in place at first contact. Gin also said he taught chin na and Yang’s grip was so powerful that your arm would be sore and black and blue for weeks at a time. Comparing that to today, it does give us something to think about.
46 neijia // Jun 17, 2008 at 12:27 am
>it should be “Look guys, we’re the Yang “family”, so we should get some perks when it comes to advertising, so please don’t use our names, get some other name for your stuff
yes, ironically, Chinese industry is infamous for lack of respect of IP (I especially like those car knockoffs), but from a modern view, they should essentially be able to protect their brand.
47 José de Freitas // Jun 19, 2008 at 12:51 am
I think that, much as we should have another name for non-martial Taiji (which is fine for thousands of people who really benefit from it), we should be able to distinguish at a glance if we’re talking “Yang Inner Family”, “Yang Extended Family and Disciples”, “Yang Lineages”, “Learned from the Yangs but added or took away stuff”, “Saw a video from a Yang guy and added it to his own stuff” and so on, in single, easy to use words.
But then, we don’t need to, do we? I mean, WHO CARES? Only us martial arts junkies, the vast majority of the millions who practice Taiji (and again, mostly benefiting from it) really don’t care, primarily because they wouldn’t be able to tell the difference.
But of course, “bragging rights” can bring in the dollars from the seminar circuit, so…. But the truth is, I look at all the old great masters everybody is always quoting and imitating, and in some way or another, or at intervals, they all came up with what was essentially “their thing” and really didn’t worry overmuch about the rest. That’s why I think “lineage” is a more important concern than “style”. “Learned from X who learned from Y who got it from famous Master Whomever” is generally more useful than saying “Yang style”.
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