http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWK9hyJwMEs
This is a compilation video of some forms training and fights from the last remaining tang shou dao (TSD) school in Taiwan. I had the distinct honor of training with these guys last year for about six months. They are a bunch of hard workers who take the fighting aspects of xingyi and bagua very seriously. The person doing the five element linking form in the video is Teacher Su, a student of the great Hsu Hong-chi. Su has taught a number of full-contact champions here in Taiwan, some of who are in the video. I had the distinct pleasure of putting on the gear and going at it with some of these champions, and I can tell you that they hit hard and can take hits equally well. I was very impressed with their professionalism.
Many of you may have heard of the famous leitai fights that were once held here in Taiwan. These are the only people left that are continuing that tradition. Sad, but true.
Their xingyi was very powerful and stressed going through the target when doing the fajing. They practice several of the 8-step forms before going on to the five elements, linking forms, 12 animals, and the hou-tian bagua.
The main thing that I liked about training there was that you could spar almost as much as you wanted. They had a huge box of heavily-used sparring gear in the corner — always a good sign IMO.
12 responses so far ↓
1 Q // Dec 7, 2006 at 11:37 pm
Oh man, I’m so envious of their facililty. That can’t be in Taipei, the rent would be astronomical. Did the guy who got pulled by the foot roll over and kick w/ his other leg? That’s some neat stuff.
2 Thomas // Dec 8, 2006 at 1:34 am
I love the solo training sequences in the shed. That’s where the work is done.
David, your remark about the “huge box of heavily-used sparring gear in the corner–always a good sign” is classic. I wasn’t aware that anyone from Xu Hong Ji’s school still taught and fought in Taiwan . . . had been under the impression that TST had largely moved over to the U.S.
Good change and flow in some of the exchanges on the fighting footage. I bet you could feel the impact even through the protective gear.
Is there any extant film of Xu Hong Ji himself, demonstrating or teaching? I know he had at least a brief appearance in a movie, but haven’t ever seen anything from him at school. Mike Patterson, John Price or Vince Black might have some, or perhaps the school in Taiwan.
David, thanks for posting the TST footage.
3 QuaiJohnCain (John Chittenden) // Dec 8, 2006 at 2:04 am
Though the bulk TST did move over to the US, it’s dying here too.
Most people here who are interested in intense training go on the MMA path, and the last of the best TST fighters all seem to keep a very low profile for various reasons. Really there’s only two or three groups left that train as hard as Hsu’s school did, and they are all very, very small. Very sad, IMO.
As far of footage of Hsu goes, you will have to ask Hsu’s direct disciples, though I highly doubt any of them will share much. I do know there is footage of Hsu teaching the Tien Gunn, but I havent seen it. Kao San Lun, Mike Patterson, John Price, or James McNeil would be the ones to ask. But as I said, don’t hold your breath.
As far as other TST video goes, Patterson has a lot of kuoshu footage, but will pretty much only let his students view it, at least the last time I heard someone inquire about it. It might not be a bad idea to ask some of his students if they have stuff they’re willing to share though, quite a few of them taped the tournaments…
4 tim // Dec 8, 2006 at 2:58 am
John,
Why do you think that TST has stayed so small?
5 chessman71 // Dec 8, 2006 at 7:45 am
The school is in YongHe on the roof of the teacher’s apartment building. If you’ve ever been to Taiwan, then you must have seen such “buildings.” They’re all illegal but cheap. Haha. so he doesn’t pay any rent whatsoever, meaning he will be open for years to come.
About the box, when I walked it, I saw it in the corner. It almost came up to my waist and was filled with gloves and head gear that was all heavily worn. I knew I was in the right place when I saw that. And yes, you can really feel the impact of the blows even through the headgear. A Japanese guy got put in the hospital during one of the tournaments a few years ago because he got hit so hard. He had to have brain surgery to repair a broken blood vessel. yikes.
I saw pics of Hsu at the school but they don’t have video that I know of. They are very friendly and open. Teacher Su even had a pic of him with Hsu and Mike Patterson. He had a very fond impression of Americans and said they all trained hard at Hsu’s school. It was good to hear that.
I find it interesting that TSD is so small here in Taiwan despite not having gone through the lineage wars that happened to TSD in the US. There was no real controversy here but perhaps a lack of promotional effort and a lack of people willing and able to teach.
But despite being small, they’ve kept it real so I think very highly of them. Good to know that someone is keeping it alive. Rage against the dying of the light….haha.
6 chessman71 // Dec 8, 2006 at 7:54 am
One other quick note, since I had sparred with the students before, I got invited to participate in their full-contact tournament a couple of months ago. I was honored but I was unable to go because I had a gout attack that weekend. I could barely walk, let alone fight, so I wasn’t even able to attend.
I say this to show why my emphasis is shifting a bit to include health conerns from an IMA/qigong perspective. Not participating in that tournament broke my heart. It was probably my last chance.
So take it from me, health is even more important than fighting skills.
7 tim // Dec 8, 2006 at 8:09 am
Dave,
I hear you, about health being important. I have been happy to see a lot of my old injuries go away with qigong. But it’s bad if people are getting head injuries like that. They should be making sure the headgear is still resilient. I never use gym headgear…bought my own “Top Ten” brand olympic boxing headgear and I always , always, bring it with me if I expect to train with contact.
Ideally we’d spar light (not “control” sparring, but more like play fighting) every day, then fight regularly in tournaments where we go balls to the wall with people we don’t know. That’s what the Thais do, and I think it’s the secret to their success. These days I won’t train at a gym if the guys there want to go balls to the wall every day.
That’s probably why I stick with judo and my stickfighting stuff for now….damn I wish that we had something like a big daidojuku or kyokushin circuit here in the states.
8 tim // Dec 8, 2006 at 8:11 am
I guess what I’m saying is, I came to this stuff to stretch my ability to get in the ring…as long as possible.
9 QuaiJohnCain (John Chittenden) // Dec 8, 2006 at 8:38 am
TIM- I think that a combination of horribly hard work (keeping it real), with a lack of marketing is the reason. Patterson had a rather large following- thanks to marketing. But that’s gone now and only three or four of his best teach at the “old” intensity. Virtually all of the others ran/run small groups, or dare I say it -McKwoons.
10 QuaiJohnCain (John Chittenden) // Dec 8, 2006 at 8:39 am
Oops, when I said “all others” I meant Hsu’s students, not Pattersons…
11 tim // Dec 13, 2006 at 4:00 pm
John,
That’s really too bad. Patterson has always been on my list of people-to-check-out. I think one of the big problems is the type of people that kf attracts in America. For another, I think that the really good things in kf, are hard to sell to the very people who would need them the most, i.e. the full contact/mma guys. So you’re left with a very, very small group of people that can appreciate both.
Something like kendo (which _does_ teach the use of the dantian/tanden and jin, albeit not in the same way that I think taiji does)
has it easier because they have a self-contrained sparring event (kendo competitions). With mma, you don’t have that, so you’re left with kf people picking up fights where they can find them.
It’s really too bad there’s no amateur kickboxing tournaments in the same way there is karate (kyokushin) or even judo.
12 wayne hansen // Jan 24, 2008 at 7:13 am
i fought in the tsd tournament in taipei on double
10 day in 1975.it was hot,hectic and a lot of fun with our team from australia,usa,and japan as well as the local team.what has happened to ongy
master hsu,s son is he still involved.just to let you know we here at thai keik australia,even though our main emphasis is yang tai chi,still teach ba bu da,ba lien shou,ba shou,wu hsing,lien han,tien kan and other aspects of master hsu,s tst to select students.
alas like taiwan those who want to train hard on a daily basis are few and far between.
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