The following is a block quote of part of a review of a recent seminar by Tim Cartmell. I found it here (Kit le Blanc is listed as the writer) but I don’t think a lot of people saw it. I thought it was a great quote because it shows a certain perspective on how push hands devolved, what it was meant to do, and what taiji might actually be. I’ve highlighted several parts that I think are important.
Tim started with a brief overview of internal body mechanics, and certain principles of body management, and the management of the body of the opponent. He also discussed something that many Taiji practitioners are perhaps not even aware of: Taijiquan is a grappling art. Tim’s research has shown him that 80% of Taiji is wrestling. Push hands was a sort of kumi kata in Taiji’s practice, from which a wide variety of throwing techniques would flow. Over time, he believes that as skilled practitioners understood the application of throwing techniques amongst one another, that push hands essentially evolved into the somewhat benign pushing that we see today. It was a kind of “I know you got me on that one” type understanding, that avoided constantly being spiralled into the ground by your training partner. He believes that style of training eventually became par for the course, and over time the majority of practitioners simply stopped practicing real grappling and throwing, leading to what we see the bulk of Taiji practice is today.
We then practiced several “generic” throws based on Taiji principles. I found these very interesting, as they were analogous to judo throws but with a different entry and control (and without a gi). He stressed that internal throws in general do not rely on what can be termed kuzushi per se, and are not based on disrupting the attackers balance, rather they are based on disrupting the attacker’s structure, and twisting him into the ground to his dead angle based on how his structure has been changed. Sticking with the whole body is critical in this aspect. (BJJ folks should start seeing the connections right about here…)
At the end of the session Tim opened it up for questions. Several folks asked specific questions about techniques from several Taiji styles. Tim showed how certain popular and well known moves from the forms are actually the entry to and follow through on several throws, several of which would be familiar to judoka, without a gi and a slightly different approach to “fitting in.”
Tim explained how he has used these throwing principles on everyone from champion judoka to skilled wrestlers and grapplers in dojo grappling and in high level BJJ competition.
This is an interesting perspective that makes sense of several things in taiji. If push hands is a type of throwing practice in which people don’t get fully thrown, then that could explain some of the flavor that he see in today’s PH practice.
I also found it interesting about how taiji supposedly doesn’t use kuzushi to break the opponent’s balance but goes after the opponent’s balance. It may be a technicality, but I’m not so sure I agree with this statement. it seems to me that breaking the structure implies breaking the opponent’s zhongding (taiji speak for central equilibrium) and that’s pretty close to breaking his balance. You just don’t steal it as completely as judo might. But perhaps I’ve forgotten what judo guys mean by kuzushi. But the comment about the dead angle seems right on to me.
I also like the comment about many of the styles having throws hidden in them. That also jives with my experience and what I like to do in taiji. Chen style, for example, has some nasty throws.
So I’m looking forward to Tim’s upcoming DVD release on standup grappliing. I hope he covers some of this material on it.
12 responses so far ↓
1 Q // Nov 12, 2006 at 1:56 am
By 80% of tai chi is he referring to that most tai chi styles contain 80% throwing in the forms or that 80% of the styles focus on throwing where maybe 20% of the styles focus on striking?
2 tim // Nov 12, 2006 at 4:52 am
When I’ve talked to my judo teachers, they’ve emphasized kuzushi as breaking the balance. They focus on movement as a means to break someone’s balance…most of my teachers have emphasized that “breaking posture” through static strength is a “big person’s game” and that as a smaller guy, I can’t and shouldn’t do that.
Judo typically teaches that body pivoting is the way to off balance an opponent, by setting them up into a weak position by means of footwork, and then using the twist of the body pivot to add power and throw.
But now I see that there is something else at work too– there is an aspect of breaking someone’s structure that Cartmell is talking about. I thinnk that a lot of the IMA (that’s a misnomer…can we call it just structure?) is based on training dynamically balanced structure specifically. All the top level judo guys that I’ve worked out with have this–they have developed it through randori (free wrestling) practice. I think that the solo kungfu/Aunkai practices and of the limited pushing drills are designed to train this dynamic structure specifically.
So then, there’s actually two ways to off balance someone
1. Body shifting through stepping/pivoting
2. Passing the force through the body and manipulating it without overt external footwork, or having to commit the weight.
The first is really strong– int’l or nat’l level judo or sub wrestling guys are seriously capable people.
The second can be really strong too– look at those old videos of Cheng Manqing. He was a small guy but had some decent “body connection” and was able to whip around his admittedly not-too-clued in larger students (some of whom were judo players).
A person who has specifically trained both is going to obviously be one hell of a fighter.
Back to the film clips: around 1:41 the winning fighter throws directly from the push. But he still needs to pivot. Then his last throw of the clip, he spins entirely. One thing that bothers me about what he’s doing is that he is committing a lot of his weight. If you notice, he underhooks with one hand, then commits his weight to his other hand to keep his opponents wrist down, preventing the opponent from getting an underhook. This is totally a move I use all the time in judo, and that I’ve seen most players use. In fact, this is how the winner dominates the match for the most part. Nothing wrong with that, in the sense that…he wins!
Not to be too harsh on the guy– I think you’re right that it’s a process and that none of us are going to look like a master right away. So I figure by doing the training, then fighting a resisting opponent with it, eventually people find for themselves the right way.
3 chessman71 // Nov 12, 2006 at 9:05 am
Q,
I think he’s saying that 80% of the moves in ALL taiji forms are grappling related instead of striking.
Tim,
I’m a little unclear as to your views on kuzushi in taiji. The above quote says that Tim separates kuzushi from breaking structure. In my view, breaking the structure is breaking zhongding — central equilibrium — so I see them as being close to the same thing. Do you see them as different?
As to the separation of offbalancing based on footwork, many, many IMA’s use pivoting and sweeping to break the opponent’s balance. Bagua and taiji specialize in that. A quick look at Tim Cartmell’s book on throwing will also confirm that. So I don’t think that we should get the idea that IMA’s only use breaking the structure without footwork. In fact, I’d go so far as to say that doing this without footwork, even in IMA, is NOT the way to go.
And Chen style is one of the worst examples of that. Far too many of the “big dogs” have people thinking that you don’t have to employ footwork to defeat an opponent. That’s a VERY dangerous assumption IMO, and another reason that I don’t put much faith in the big names that are so frequently mentioned. What they tend to show is a very small part of the puzzle.
4 Q // Nov 12, 2006 at 2:34 pm
Hmm… I don’t know. It seems to me a lot of times the strikes and grappling goes together anyway. You might strike to setup the toss or strike afterwards to finish the guy. e.g. a single whip can be used to hit the face or to grab the arm and toss, depending on your mood or distance/angle to opponent. I would consider the movements to be designed w/ the possibility of grappling instead of saying the frames are grappling oriented.
5 tim // Nov 12, 2006 at 5:28 pm
Chessman:
I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear. All I was saying was that _in judo_ what I’ve been taught is all motion/movement based. So you can throw someone by , say, chopping their leg out from under them with your leg, while slamming into them with your chest. But this only happens after you have positioned them so they are off balance, through the use of footwork you open up a vulnerability, i.e. you time the throw so that when you attack their leg, you know that they are about to put their weight on it, and are thus vulnerable.
That’s a timing issue, vs. manipulating their structure so that when they push on you, they push themselves away, and then you direct them into the ground with your hands. There’s a video floating on youtube of Wang Peisheng doing this during a pushands demo.
Now in real dynamic combat, sure, I’d argue that a top level judo player like Koga or Inoue already does this instinctively to some degree, so it’s not like the two (movement/pivoting the body and then jin manipulation) are inseparable.
As far as taiji (or aiki for that matter), I’m just saying that there is something additionally trained beyond the movement/footwork, which is the jin training. One can, of course, use both. And I certainly would at my level…I’m just saying that I think the _optimum situation_ would be if a person could use only the jin manipulation to throw the guy, thus necessitating a limited amount of actual energy expenditure on the part of the thrower. So if a person had a high level of “connection” in comparison to his opponent, he could throw without much overt motion.
Let me kind of break it down like this– so I’ve seen some videos of taiji throwing techinques shot by a Japanese film crew in Chen village. If I look at it from the judo or wrestling point of view, the stuff I saw was not good. There was not enough movement on the part of the thrower, i.e. he doesn’t have enough leverage. Actually I remember there was a thread on mma.tv a while back where some pretty serious (as in former Olympic hopefuls) judo players saw Chen Xiaowang throwing people and pronounced it “crap.” I don’t agree with that point obviously or we wouldn’t be talking right now.
If the thrower is using internal principles/bodyskill then the guy _doesn’t need_ to use the extra leverage. In fact, it’s a waste of his energy to do this since he is already borrowing his opponent’s force through his structure, and consciously so. But if the thrower _doesn’t_ have jin manipulation skills, then he’s stuck with a throw where he will need to rely on “simple” muscle and of course it’s not going to work unless he’s just bigger. So in that case, the thrower _should_ be doing things with closer body contact, and a setup based exclusively on movement.
That’s why, when I first saw taiji throws I thought, “damn it those only work if you’re much stronger than the guy. there’s no technique there, and it sucks. they should just do wrestling or judo.”
What I didn’t understand was that _in that particular instance_ jin skills were standing in for raw muscle, and essentially, the thrower had a “hidden power” that I just wasn’t seeing/aware of. When that enters the equation…well it’s a whole new ball game.
6 chessman71 // Nov 12, 2006 at 8:22 pm
Tim,
Thanks for the lengthy response. I appreciate you making that clear.
“If the thrower is using internal principles/bodyskill then the guy _doesn’t need_ to use the extra leverage. In fact, it’s a waste of his energy to do this since he is already borrowing his opponent’s force through his structure, and consciously so.”
After reading this, my first thought was do not give up your judo. What CXW and others can pull off is GREATLY dependent on the circumstances. In other words, when they are in seminars working with compliant people, then they obviously don’t need to do foot sweeps and other throws. They can just casually off-balance the people.
Using foot sweeps, leg checks and other parts of throwing is not necessarily using muscle. Again, that is part and parcel of IMA throwing practice, specifically Chen style and bagua. Lots of bagua throws use the types of things that you’re associating with simple muscle strength. I also have an entire VCD on Chen style dedicated to foot sweeps.
I like the Olympic hopeful’s comment: they are likely correct that he couldn’t pull off that type of stuff with a resisting opponent.
7 tim // Nov 13, 2006 at 4:45 am
Chessman,
Thanks. I’m really enjoying this discussion because it is helping me to clarify my own thoughts, and see where my errors are.
Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80B5b93cKcY
It’s a highlight reel for Chiyonofuji, maybe one of the top sumotori ever. He’s also, for a sumotori, poorly built– at 120 kg he was much smaller than most of his opponents. Yet, he was able to push many of them out of the ring. And yeah, sometimes he does use taisabaki (i.e. body pivoting) Simple power? Doubtful. Some people call it “technique” but I’d call it…body skill. There’s a reason that Sagawa and Takeda (of Daito ryu) focused on sumo stamping as a basic body training method.
8 tjqjudo // Jan 31, 2007 at 12:07 am
This is a really great thread. I’m wondering the exact same questions. I’ve recently started judo, have trained some pushing hands (the “devolved” or “evolved” depending on your pov, off-balancing-only sort), and both are beautiful and complementary. I had a rare opportunity to attend Cartmell’s school for a couple of sessions and his throws were sublime and truly effortless compared to anything else I’ve experienced so far. He showed me how he did the exact form movements (Yang in this case) - and how one “posture” could be EITHER throw or striking depending on distance/angle/etc. I was blown away. It was just like he writes in his book. I cannot wait to get his dvd.
He also said judo is excellent and I would definitely get a lot out of it. Probably unrelated, he also mentioned something to the effect that in any athletic endeavor, one should learn crude skills before learning finesse skills. Not to imply necessarily given my limited experience that push hands is mainly finesse, but so far it seems that way, for better and for worse. Robert Smith called judo the “high school of soft” and taiji “the college”. It does seem that in taiji, we deliberately strive to get even softer than we do in judo. Probably good and bad. In contrast, the thing I am loving about judo is that I can learn to “muscle” a technique too much and quickly refine it because doing that repeatedly gets way too tiring. To keep practicing after you’re tired out during the session, you have no choice but to get smoother and cleaner. I also try to incorporate what I think are subtle (maybe just different?) push hands “energies” whenever I can. In the end maybe I’ll think “this is all the same” and just a different journey to arrive at the same goal. I don’t know. For now, they seem different and wonderfully complementary, so I’ll do them in parallel and wonder these questions and read your great blog posts and replies.
9 chessman71 // Jan 31, 2007 at 5:34 am
Welcome and glad you lke the blog.
Judo is cool. I still miss lots of things about it. Many of those things you mention in your comment. Considering judo the high school of softness and taiji the college level seems about right in my book. BTW, I’m thinking of having my boy train in judo when he’s old enough. I can teach him some basic shaolin and stuff, but getting the judo done will pay dividends throughout his lifetime.
My one piece of advice is don’t quit the judo!
10 tjqjudo // Mar 18, 2007 at 1:23 pm
Chessman,
First off, congrats on the birth of your baby boy!
Second, after being at judo for a short time, I’m trying to formulate a combination that would work for me right now given limited experience in taiji and judo. One that comes to mind now is a sort of 1) split to 2) brush knee. In judo terms I am thinking of a modified 1) kouchi gari (but in somewhat of a split shape but with both palms face up and not necessarily any heel trip) and a modified 2) ippon seoi nage (looks incredibly similar to a Chen style brush knee form) probably done as a “hand throw” and not as a hip throw as sometimes seen. I will try working the split when my partner or opponent reaches (seems the usual approach with normal grip) with right hand to lapel (yielding to that “energy” by rotating left shoulder back and right hand in for split to attack with a centerline knock down and transition to seoi nage as follow if needed). Gonna try it in randori soon… right now judo seems like a peculiar form of push hands, so taiji postures and judo throws quickly converge in my mind… the eight “energies” of taiji can be seen in combination in every throw I’ve learned thus far… what do you think? Any thoughts or advice appreciated.
11 Andre T // Jun 12, 2007 at 3:44 pm
First off, just wanted to say good job on your blog. I enjoy reading it very much and it’s given me much food for thought in my own studies.
A similar question about this very same topic was asked on Tim Cartmell’s discussion board under the title . In this thread, both Tim Cartmell, Kit LeBlanc and others discuss and clarify the difference between breaking structure and breaking balance.
They point out that breaking a person’s structure (posture) leaves that person in a vulnerable and weakened state where they may have balance (or they think they do) as they are still upright and thus the throw comes as a surprise to the person.
Kuzushi on the other hand breaks both the structure and balance at the same time. They explain it a lot better than I do so check out that thread.
12 Andre T // Jun 12, 2007 at 3:49 pm
Sorry about the super long hyperlink. No way to edit it, but at least you can’t miss the link to the discussion. It still works. Hyperlink title was supposed to be “Question about Kuzushi in relation to IMA throwing” which was the topic title on Tim’s board.
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