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Qi Gong standards pt. 2: bagua, TCM, and teachers

November 4th, 2006 · 7 Comments · Bagua and/or xingyi, Qigong, Taijiquan, Traditional Chinese Medicine

Casey/onyomi and I are having an important discussion in the comment section of the post about qigong standards. It’s so important that I don’t want to keep it in the comment section, but write a new post to address the issue. He brings up some great points that I’d like to discuss.

Here’s his comment:

The reason I say circle walking and santi “aren’t” qigong (besides parroting what I’ve heard Zhou laoshi say) is because the cultivation of the qi isn’t their primary goal. This is the same reason I would say Tantui or a Taiji form is not qigong. Though the skills gained in qigong will come into play when performing these exercises, it is more a matter of using what you’ve developed, not so much developing it further I think. I do agree that these practices, when performed correctly, can all advance your qigong practice, so in a way, they could be called qigong. However, I think this is like calling Judo’s randori “strength training.” Certainly you are working your muscles when throwing heavy opponents and could even become quite strong with Randori alone if you did enough of it. Still, most people wouldn’t call randori “strength training,” because building up muscular strength is the primary goal.This is why I don’t call Taiji forms, circle walking, santi or Tantui, “qigong,” even though they can all benefit the qi system. It just depends on how broad your definition is. I tend to keep it narrow, because if you don’t then a seemingly infinite number of activities start to become candidates for “qigong-hood”–for example swimming (and this is absolutely not a dig against your previous article, Dave–I totally understood and agreed with what you were getting at there), which involves rhythmic breathing, moving the muscles through a wide range of motion, etc. Swimming is a great type of exercise and very good for you, quite possibly for many of the same reasons qigong is. Nonetheless, Olympic swimmers are not all qigong masters, despite swimming many hours a day. Therefore, I exclude swimming from my personal definition of qigong. (And I think we qigong practitioners have to constantly examine our own “personal” definitions of qigong, because I’ve found virtually no two people are working with quite the same idea when they use the term).

These are some good points. Below is my response.

One, most people that talk more on Internet chat forums represent BGQ and XYQ lineages that don’t seem to stress those arts as qigong (perhaps I should say mis-represent). (However, not everyone that posts on the Internet falls into this category. There are exceptions.) The fact that these are mainly foreigners that are practicing these arts in the States is part of that equation as well. So there is a real misrepresentation of the arts going on in the public forums because of people’s obsession with fighting. With that obsession in place, there’s likely no room to consider that BGZ and XYQ might have qigong components. So you really have to consider your source when you’re looking for information.

The first style of bagua that I studied was the nine palace style of Liu Xing-han, and I studied under a disciple from that lineage. We started with circle walking and then the eight mother palms (as many BGZ styles outside of Taiwan do) and the whole purpose of the practice was to build up qi within the body. The other benefits of connectivity, structure, leg strength, etc. were all secondary, not primary as is often talked about on the Internet. I haven’t talked about that experience much yet because it was profound and I still don’t know what to do with it. One of my biggest problems was that I joined the army and moved away, meaning that I couldn’t continue my training. So my practice of it had to stop.

But the whole purpose of circle walking, in general, is to sink the qi to the dantian and allow it to accumulate over time. The peculiar bagua twisting towards the center of the circle creates a type of lock just above the dantian that prevents the qi from rising. So breathing into the dantian sinks the qi, and the lock prevents it from easily coming back up. Thus the accumulation happens. The 8 mother palms (and the single palm change) stretch the limbs and torso in a manner much like the yijinjing and allow the qi to circulate throughout the body. I never got far into that stage because I left but it was made very clear to me that that was the intent of the training.

This leads to point number two: not everyone is aware of this or maybe even agrees with it. As I already stated, those with only fighting in mind won’t agree with what I just wrote. But people who don’t train bagua probably won’t know either. And unfortunately, that applies to teachers as well. Teachers who have never trained bagua and who have never had exposure to it as a qigong practice likely won’t recognise it as qigong. Perhaps some who have been exposed to it may still think it’s not qigong, but at that point it’s a matter of opinion.

Third, from what I know, post-heaven qigong is a means of strengthening the body that does include practices such as taiji forms, exercises, hou-tian bagua, tan tui, etc. These practices are meant to work the body vigorously to “pump” and heat the blood, leading to increased bone marrow production ala xisuijing — the marrow washing classic.

The problem is, a lot of physical exercise can fall into that category and trying to exclude it may cloud the principles behind post-heaven qigong. Studies showing that weight-lifting by senior citizens leads to increased bone marrow production is just one example. Now I’m not suggesting that basketball players, etc. are qigong experts :) but according to my understanding of the pre and post- heaven qi paradigm, this is how it works.

The final point that I’d like to make is that any attempt to firmly ground this material on TCM will only succeed relative to the definition of TCM that you’re using. Afterall, a lot of TCM doctors now scoff at the five element theory because it doesn’t account for several important phenomena. Many of the other traditional theories also have come into question. Bascially, the defintion of qigong and TCM that you get will differ even among experts depending on how far you push it.

This is just my opinion, but instead of trying to figure out standards for qigong, I would suggest people look for the following type of qigong teacher:

1. one who has a clear definition of qigong — even if it differs somewhat from what others use (note: most of the info in popular qigong books is wrong or incomplete!)

2. a clear training method that has different levels and a progression and yet, a knowledge of how the components work as parts and as a whole

3. a reasonable answer as to how and why the components of the system work the way they do

4. feedback mechanisms that allow you to verify the results

5. a method that addresses a broad range of issues (assuming that someone does’t have cancer and is looking for a specialist, etc.)

6. and most importantly, proof positive from the teacher’s body and the way that he moves that his qigong method will produce the results he/she says it will

I think that focusing on these requirements will allow someone to find a qualified qigong teacher.

Once this type of teacher is found, other considerations come into play. But perhaps that should be saved for another post.

BTW, none of this addressed at any particular individual or group. I just thought that Casey’s comment raised some good points and provided an opportunity for a larger discussion.

As always, feedback is welcome.

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7 responses so far ↓

  • 1 Casey // Nov 4, 2006 at 2:48 pm

    I had never heard the function of Bagua circle walking described that way before, though I did realize the upper body was stretching. That is very interesting and I suppose would qualify it as “true” qigong.

    I think you’re also right that most people don’t practice it that way anymore. Even if you don’t yet fully understand what was going on at the time, I’d be very interested to hear some of your experiences with this kind of qigong.

  • 2 chessman71 // Nov 4, 2006 at 5:37 pm

    Casey,
    Sorry if I made my point with a sledgehammer. Hope I didn’t come off too strong.
    You’re right that most people don’t talk about circle walking that way. It’s too bad. Part of this (as I said) is the mindset of the people doing the talking.

    Offhand, I can’t think of anybody with this knowledge in your neck of the woods, but you’re advanced enough to see this in bagua people if they have it even if you haven’t done bagua yourself. So if you look around, you might find someone who uses this paradigm for BGZ training.

    You’re also right in that I don’t fully comprehend what has happening at the time — it was a very strange experience. We’ll talk more about it.

    I’m curious what you think about my take on the purpose of post-heaven training. What’s your response to something like that? Does it fit in with what Zhou laoshi teaches or is he using a different conception of it?

    I’m thinking of studying qigong with him next BTW, and your introductions have helped lead me in that direction. Thanks for that.:)

  • 3 Martial Development // Nov 6, 2006 at 8:57 am

    I strongly agree with your points #4 and #6, but the others are just decoration. :)

  • 4 tim // Nov 7, 2006 at 1:19 am

    Isn’t Luo De Xiu’s group still in Taiwan?

  • 5 Chad // Dec 31, 2006 at 6:43 am

    The way I was taught, qigong, neigong, and wai gong are not forms or different training paradigms. Rather they are various levels of any type of physical fitness training as is (or was) veiwed by the Chinese cultural eye. The issue of what is or is not qigong just isnt present. There is a “qigong” level of taiji( or more appropriately nei gong) as well as a waigong aspect. While the focus of the practitioner may change through various levels of training, these things are constantly a part of training.

    Take swimming for example. The wai gong part of it could be described as general conditioning, strength training, and the like while the nei gong or qi gong aspect is the breath controll and it’s coordination with the movement, shen fa culd be technique or whatever. The point is that these are simply words to catorgorize things into cohesive units and make learning or training more effecient.

    Pre and post heaven concepts were explained to me like this; pre heaven techniques and such are working with what you have inately and post heaven are buidling or improving upon those things. For example, pre heaven warm ups focus on simply warming up the muscles, lubricating joints, and begining gentel stimulus of the nueromuscular system. Post heaven are excercises to increase strength, improve range of motion, and build higher levels of nueromuscular effeciency. One is sustaining, the other is improving.

    Again, these are just words and people are free to define them however is most useful to them.

    As far as standards go, I agree that the general level of expertise in the martial art and qigong community is dreadfully low. I am constantly amazed and discouraged by the almost momumental amount of ignorance of the human body instructors of CMA and Qigong display. For those of us who teach, it behoves us to stay just as informed as any atheltic coach or trainer. All the most recent research is freely available through the internet these days ( Google scholar and pub med are addictions of mine) and there is no reason why a minimum level of knowledge of anatomy and physiology should not be required. unfortunately, formums like this are rare these days, and poeple do not discuss issues in a producive manner. Another reason why Blogs and discussion boards like this are so valuable.

    We all have something to contribute.

  • 6 phi // Oct 15, 2007 at 11:30 pm

    Yes, Baqua circle is linked with Qi Gong, this is not understanding but another friend. Same as Pi with Palm in Xing Yi (smoother version, that is my understanding).

  • 7 Rob // Dec 28, 2007 at 2:37 pm

    How can i go about finding a instructer like yourself Chad, or one with a higher level?

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