So I’ve gotten some info from Orz, a new reader of the blog, that puts a whole different spin on my previous post about the fight/push hands match between CXW and Liao Bai. Let me state up front and for the record, I have NO affiliation with either one of them nor do I really have an emotional investment in who won or lost. I just think that this should be discussed a bit more considering the info that I personally received.
Having said all that, if any of Orz’s info is correct, then most everything in my previous post is incorrect, meaning my info was possibly way off. I will also try to be more careful in the future to make sure I’m not being used to spread propaganda by one camp or the other. In something like this, though, it’s a bit hard to see just where the truth lies.
With that intro, here’s what Orz was able to find out. I think him for his time and effort to make this available to us.
In this case, the title “The truth” about Chen Xiao Wang’s fight seems inappropriate (Although it is debatable). In fact, the “fight” was already set and fixed, CXW was informed and knew the challenge by Chen-Village elder “Chen Jingwu” before he came to Taiwan. And he was willing to take it. (That was another story.) The day, CXW went to “Zuoying Shaolin Wuguan” with Zhao Fulin and Chen Jingwu. Zhao was the host and he invited several local CMA celebrities in Kaohsiung. Besides, owner of the remarkable CMA bookstore - Lionbooks(wuxue shuguan), Mr. Liu was also there. So, according to “the student of CXW”, who were the mafia members and gansters? Chen Jingwu? Zhao Fulin? or Mr. Liu?
Here is a photo of the day from Chenjiagou(Chen Village) website : http://www.chenjiagou.net/bbs/uploadImages/20056121127317558.jpg
Definitely, it is “Zuoying Shaolin Wuguan”: 3F., No.2-83, Zuoying Avenue, Zuoying District, Kaohsiung City 813, Taiwan. Tel:07-5823332 Taizhong? Impossible!
I found a fair discussion from one of the most famous taiji website in China for you if you could read Chinese: http://taiji.net.cn/bbs/dispbbs.asp?boardid=6&id=6777&star=1&page=1
Your scoop is incorrect, and I don’t know if “this student of CXW” lied purposely. Could you please tell him, do not spread this rumour around, even it’s a side of the story. His behavior seems ignorant and uncouth, and the untrue information will mislead others. Thanks!
As you can see, this casts a whole new light on the issue. Was Chen officially challenged? The implications of this are obviously profound.
19 responses so far ↓
1 Formosa Neijia - Exploring Taiwan’s Internal Martial Arts » The truth about Chen Xiao Wang’s “fight”? // Oct 18, 2006 at 7:24 pm
[…] The truth about Chen Xiao Wang’s fight, pt.2 […]
2 wujimon // Oct 18, 2006 at 8:34 pm
Perhaps I’m missing something, but are you nothing that it was “a challenge” and at the same time it was a fixed outcome, meaning CXW knew in advance he would behave and be attacked as such?
3 Q // Oct 19, 2006 at 12:31 am
What is the photo supposed to show? The link no longer works, at least for me. Anyhow I think w/ famous people the reputation’s too important and gets in the way of truth. Understandable, but still sucks.
4 chessman71 // Oct 19, 2006 at 7:49 am
Wuji,
I’m just posting what Orz has said about this encounter. Apparently he got his info off the links in the post above.
I’m not saying anything about this really. None of this is coming from me.
But I don’t see how it could be a fixed outcome. Who would agree with that.
Also, while I respect everyone’s right to believe what they like about this (I agree it’s difficult to discuss), I have to say that I’ve heard multiple times that CXW WILL NOT respond to challenges. Why would he? What does he have to gain? Nothing, and he has everything to lose. I’ve even heard about someone that challenged him and got rejected. The official reason was that the “village” forbade it. I don’t doubt that they do.
So I’m not sure what to make of Orz’s info. But I was dumb enough to post the info that I originally got from CXW’s student, so I guess I have to let the other side rebut.
We can’t see the photo for some reason now (curious, eh?), but it clearly showed CXW and Liao Bai in a MA school, probably the very one that Orz says it was. I saw the photo yesterday.
It will probably piss everyone off, but I’m guessing that the truth is somewhere in the middle of what the two camps are claiming here.
So I’m left with the same opinion I had when I first saw all this mess: it just makes everyone involved look bad.
Perhaps I shouldn’t have posted this in the first place? What does everyone think? If I get several readers who agree witht that statement I’ll take the posts down.
5 wujimon // Oct 19, 2006 at 9:51 am
Hi C. I saw the photo too and agree that it showed CXW and LB in a MA school touching hands. Personally, I’m still confused about this whole thing and not really sure what to think or make of it. The hard part is that I have vested interest in this b/c I train in the CXW methodology from the CXW line of instruction.
I do however feel that it’s good the information is out there. The video is out there and now we have a couple of view points, which is good. I guess, leave it out there and let folks decide for themselves what it means.
My opinion and personal take, I expected more. Not sure what exactly, maybe some lin kong jin or something with all the talk behind the skill levels of the folks. I personally saw much more in the Dong Family push hands video, but that’s a totally different and controlled environment. In any case, it displayed examples of taiji listening and neutralization skills (the dong family push hands video).
6 Klaus // Oct 19, 2006 at 7:50 pm
For those with a little brain behind eyes, this was a semi-friendly PH fool-around before, after, or in between of a meeting, at a school or for lunch, or whatever. A “fight” or competitive PH rough-up with someone of CXWs background just ONE TIME returning the favour of a push (with a LOT more effect than the other way around) ? Of course, the entourage of either one must make something mysterious up, the one of the completely unknown Mr. Liao more so than the comparably well known Mr. Chen. I saw, with no affiliation to either camp, Mr. Chen encouraging Mr. Liao to attack him somewhat more, allowing him to use chest bumps. Then he reflected the bump so Mr. Liao got bumped back from his own push like 2-3m, one typical move of Taiji. After that, Mr. Chen didn’t use anything like that, just tried to catch the push, and Mr. Liao trying to bump away. He got Mr. Chen off balance a LITTLE on I think two occasions, that’s all. Fight ? PLEASE.
7 wujimon // Oct 20, 2006 at 1:12 am
Hi Klaus. I agree with you that this was not a “fight” in the true sense of the word, but merely an encounter. What is the purpose/goal/rules of the encounter? Still not really sure.. oh well.. best to just go back to my training
8 chessman71 // Oct 20, 2006 at 7:39 am
Guys,
I agree with Klaus on this and what he said is one of the reasons that I don’t believe that this was some sort of pre-arranged challenge. Notice how Chen is dressed: casually. Notice that he makes a joke when Liao comes in aggressively at the beginning of the clip. If this were a challenge, he would have expected lots of aggression and certainly wouldn’t have joked it away.
I also agree that Chen let Liao try a few things and Liao got bounced off most of the time.
It looks like a casual PH match that escalated a bit because someone had something to prove.
But on the other hand, I know that Liao is basically a xingyi guy. I don’t know how much taiji PH experience he has. In the clip, he is repeatedly trying to do XYQ’s tiger strike, which looks like “an” from taiji. Maybe Liao is just doing what he knows to do. Afterall, XYQ is much more aggressive than even Chen taiji. So we have two guys from two different systems that have very different expectations playing together. From my experience, that can lead to some interesting and mixed outcomes.
Both sides needing “stories” to explain this outcome is a bit sad IMO. As I said before, it makes everyone look bad.
9 Orz // Oct 20, 2006 at 11:43 am
guys,
I’ve told you the challenge was pre-arranged. If you really want to do research, you can just make phone call to Mr. Zhao Fulin (趙福林) in Kaohsiung. Maybe you will get what you want. I’ve given you the telephone number and address of Zuoying Shaolin Wuguan (左營少林武館) hosted by Mr. Zhao. He arranged that challenge. As I know, the relationship between Zhao Fulin and Liao Bai became worse after “the challenge”. So, maybe you could get another side of the story yourselves.
But I aggress chessman said: Both sides needing “stories” to explain this outcome is a bit sad IMO. As I said before, it makes everyone look bad.
10 Klaus // Oct 20, 2006 at 9:31 pm
A CHALLENGE fight would NEVER be made in casual clothing on the streets, with tables around, people watching it sitting on chairs, on a small open place instead of a school on a platform or mat zone. That’s plain common sense. What happens when either one is pushed away hard falling into the tables or the people ? It’s plain BULLSH*T that someone claims this was a “prearranged challenge”, with your dreaded red envelopes and death warrants and all that stuff. Prearranged in “Mr. Liao wants to meet you at XYZ place and maybe exchange a little with you on doing PH”, yes, maybe. But “challenge fight”, at noon behind the old church, no. Unfortunately, there is a lot of talkers in every camp, EVERY.
11 lzy // Oct 26, 2006 at 9:00 pm
well this is the kind of an arranged session where ppl gathered to do some push hands with CXW. I saw a better quality video. The long string of Chinese characters behind the CXW and LB said so.
Right after the LB match, there is another man bowing to CXW to start another PH session. That is when the vido clip that i saw got cut off.
12 lzy // Oct 26, 2006 at 9:06 pm
it was a PH Session arranged to let various people to have a chance to do PH With CXW. the banner hanging up behind them said so and after the LB match there is another man preparing for another match with CXW. The video that i saw was better quality than the one on youtube.com
Yeah things get complicated when ppl tell stories :p
13 d // Dec 18, 2006 at 11:58 am
Trying to use Push Hand to fight? What is the purpose of PH???
Do you think LuShuWen know how to push hand? Based on the above, can we conclude that since Li Shu Wen cannot do PH, he is not good in martial art?? How about SunLuTang’s Teachers? Non of them know Taiji PH, so they are not good as well?
PH is just a training method, part of Tai Chi training curriculum. That is why that is push hand forms and different school(styles) have different forms.
I am always amazed that a lot of you guys used these to judge who is better than the other especially the 2 are from different style.
A Chen Taiji Beginner from Singapore
14 chessman71 // Dec 18, 2006 at 3:10 pm
D,
What you’re refrring to as push hands is found in lots of different arts. Bagua does it, xingyi, taiji, northern shaolin, northern matis, and even wing chun has chi sao. This stuff is in almst every authentic Chinese art i’ve ever seen and I’ve seen a lot. So there’s no excuse for not being familiar with two-person practice, espcially for someone that is supposedly a fighter.
They may be from different styles but skills are skills.
15 Jack Rusher // Jan 18, 2007 at 4:44 am
Slightly off topic. Has anyone here crossed hands with a high level student of CXW? The only one with whom I have personal experience is Ren Guang Yi, who is firmly rooted and quite powerful. I’m interested in hearing about any others you’ve met.
Thanks in advance, –J.
16 SteveG // Dec 13, 2007 at 1:48 pm
I have seen this video before with no knowledge of the backstory. It is very clear to me that Chen is by far the superior practicioner here. He never attacks, he stays in constant contact with the opponent, he can clearly neutralize what comes at him and appears rooted the whole time. The opponent appears to be trying to attack and one gets the feeling he is trying to prove something or show off and it simply does not work. I also get the feeling that Chen could easily wipe the opponent out if he wanted to do, but Tai Chi master have no reason or inclination to do that!
17 Hermann // Dec 13, 2007 at 6:30 pm
No, not so clear. If you have to attack without real attacking, as Klaus stated, with some sort of reduced Xingyi technique (if prearranged), it won’t be easy to threaten someone like CXW. He on the other side didn’t want to show anything. Getting pushed away 2, 3 m, so what?
Wiping out? Miles away. Bader in anyway for CXW’s reputation. Liao isn’t famous, who cares anyway. Not nice to see and follow the whole, just around the corner here in Gaoxiong. Was thinking about enroling for the days (I remember in Gaoxiong alone 4?), but decided against, because of obviuos over pricing. Remember something like 10000.- NT$??
18 nn // Jan 10, 2008 at 11:20 am
LB do get his glasses thrown, slapped by CXW in the last few secs of the vid.
19 When taiji masters get real // Apr 28, 2008 at 7:57 pm
[…] This clip slays a whole lot of sacred cows. I think this is the most explosive clip since Chen Xiao-wang’s debacle with Liao Bai. […]
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