[youtube]_aYtgIkJ5UE[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aYtgIkJ5UE
I’ve been sitting on this for a while, but maybe now is the time to discuss this topic. Months ago, the video of Chen Xiao-wang’s encounter with Liao Bai, a Taiwan Sun style xingyi-bagua practicioner finally popped up on the Internet and stirred up a lot of controversy. At the time, all we had was the video to go on.
A few weeks ago, I heard Chen Xiao-wang’s side of the story from a student of his but I sat on the information until I got the blog successfully moved to this new site. So here’s the (supposed) scoop.
Chen Xiao-wang only comes to Taiwan for a day or two a year. So he’s pretty busy teaching seminars during that time. Apparently, he was going to lunch with someone that he trusted, but instead of arriving at the restaraunt as planned, this person said he had someone that he wanted Chen to see first. As they ascended the stairs, Chen apparently realized that this was someone’s school and that he was being challenged.
As you can tell from the video, many other people are present. Chen’s official organization here in Taiwan is based in Taizhong, THE center for organized crime in Taiwan (edit: apparently this didn’t happen in Taizhong, but Kaoshiung, my mistake). Chen apparently thought some or most of the people present might be mafia members. Because he didn’t know a single person in the room and his lunch host had just set him up, he decided to play it smart and not do much when Liao Bai pushed/hit Chen’s chest.
It did occur to me (for a second) that this might be propaganda from Chen’s side to cover an embarassing incident. But I dismissed that immediately. This explanation of the encounter seems very reliable to me. (edit: it now seems questionable)
For one, Chen’s group keeps a tight rein on videos of him being released. The only thing I’ve seen in the past is official news video. I’ve never seen video like this of Chen from his time in Taiwan.
Second, the set up seems strange to me. Chen is obviously wearing street clothes. In the news vids, he’s always wearing his silk taiji uniform. He obviously was casually dressed for a casual outing.
Third, the banner in the back strikes me as very odd because it’s so cheap, and that kind of banner is usually used at welcoming parties or meals. However, this doesn’t appear to be a restaraunt, but a school, possibly Liao’s school. The cheap banner would be a great way to emphasize who Chen is in the video.
All in all, I find the explanation of this encounter by Chen via another person to be credible (edit: did find). Ambushing someone who thinks they’re going to lunch is a pretty rotten thing to do (edit: if that’s what happened). I can only imagine what Chen must have thought when he saw the banner, all the people assembled (possibly gansters), and the video camera ready to go. (edit: it now seems that the people present were some of the most high-level CMA people in Taiwan)
I only hope he didn’t get a bad impression of Taiwan because of some people. (edit: please see part two of this here)
25 responses so far ↓
1 wujimon // Oct 13, 2006 at 8:56 pm
You had hinted about having some more scoop on this video before, glad you decided to share. I think it does make sense.
Given that, how would you rate Chen’s “performanace” by this surprise encounter? Perhaps he intentionally held back for fear of what could happen in this unknown environment? Or maybe he didn’t hold back at all, but showed true taiji neutralization skills?
2 Casey // Oct 13, 2006 at 11:04 pm
I think it is very believable and reflects well on Chen’s skills, as well as his ability to handle a potentially dangerous situation. Now that I think about it, the whole setup looks strangely unofficial for Chen to be participating in and you also get the impression Chen doesn’t feel comfortable. He probably was afraid to make some kind of offensive move because of all the gangsters around him.
3 John Chittenden // Oct 14, 2006 at 12:19 am
If the story about the situation is true, then Chen obviously knows how to handle such matters.
As for a martial “response” , it wasn’t even neccessary. He did redirect quick enough on Liao’s forst assault, but he really, really, should have seen those other ones coming a mile away. He even lost his balance @ 1:20. It’s possible that he was playing dumb, but none the less, this vid left me with a very raised eyebrow over Chen Xiaowang.
4 Casey // Oct 14, 2006 at 1:22 am
I’m not saying Xiaowang is necessarily the greatest Chen guy out there, but I really don’t think you can take this video as reflecting negatively on his abilities. He seems to have a great root in that he’s hardly moved by all those pushes. He also seems good at preventing the guy from getting any solid position from which to apply a real move, forcing him to resort to just pushing. If he was determined to only be defensive and not engage in any counter measures, I don’t really see how he could have done a whole lot better.
Clearly the other guy’s intent was to capture a video of him pushing Xiaowang over or at least causing him to visibly lose balance, thereby embarrassing Xiaowang and gaining recognition for himself. He couldn’t do this, despite his “homefield advantage,” Xiaowang’s totally defensive posture and his own martial arts experience. If anything, I’d say this video raises my opinion of Xiaowang as not just a guy who can do a pretty form and some demos where a bunch of people fail to push him over by pushing on one another’s backs in a big line.
5 chessman71 // Oct 14, 2006 at 7:27 am
Given the fact that he was set up, I don’t think I can draw any conclusions about Chen’s performance. He may have allowed anything to happen in order to avoid a dangerous situation in a place where he knew no one.
About the only conclusion I could draw from this is that Liao is of questionable character and people should be more careful in certain cities.
But I’m interested in what conclusions/comments readers have.
6 Aboroth // Oct 14, 2006 at 9:20 am
I’m just wondering if information such as this revelation could bring more trouble for CXW and his people.
7 chessman71 // Oct 14, 2006 at 10:30 am
Aboroth,
How so?
8 Aboroth // Oct 14, 2006 at 11:39 am
I guess I’m just thinking about all the short-tempered Mafia types I see in movies
9 Martial Development // Oct 14, 2006 at 11:46 am
I see one person taking some ineffectual cheap shots, and another showing an appropriate level of restraint.
I think the video speaks for itself, even without any backstory.
10 Q // Oct 14, 2006 at 3:44 pm
Well I actually chanced upon an interesting “side” of this story when I got here in Taiwan. If I remembered correctly they weren’t exactly in Liao’s turf. It was a neutral third party actually. Information available in Taiwanese forums (not posted by Liao himself) indicate that the event was hosted by people that were in fact surprised by Liao’s action and were pretty pissed off themselves. Liao didn’t even know he was filmed at the time. Unfortunately I can only mention stuff I found in public. Out of pure luck I met one of Liao’s student and he was a nice guy so out of respect I can’t say too much.
11 chessman71 // Oct 14, 2006 at 5:07 pm
Q,
Thanks for the info, but I find it pretty hard to believe that Liao didn’t know he was being filmed. And just considering the fact that he was there, I also find it unlikely that whoever “hosted”/set Chen up didn’t know he intended to challenge Chen. His response to the whole incident wasn’t exactly apologetic either. After all, he posted comments that he had “beat” Chen on local boards many times. He made a pretty big deal out of the whole thing, reinforcing my general impression of him.
12 Q // Oct 15, 2006 at 9:00 am
Well, I thought at 1st that it’s odd that he didn’t know he was filmed too. However, his postings on Taiwanese forums changed from ‘beat’ into ‘tie’ (if you read the later versions of what he posts there). That’s why I think it’s plausible, though obviously I wasn’t involved so I don’t know for sure (his student wasn’t there either, just saw the tape). If I remembered correctly the hosts expected just a ‘friendly’ push hands match, instead of what transpired at the event. But on the forums you can find comments by some of the attendees at the event being pretty pissed off at Liao for what he did. I’m not trying to defend Liao btw. His student was nice but I never met Liao.
13 chessman71 // Oct 15, 2006 at 9:56 am
Q,
No sweat. I appreciate the info. I also find it interetsing that Liao’s tone changed somewhat. All I saw were his comments about beating Chen. I don’t follow the Chinese boards closely so I didn’t catch the tie comments.
From what you’ve said, I still find the “hosts” to be a strange bunch because of the way they ambushed Chen. I’ve heard that Chen’s Taizhong group goes out of their way to prevent this kind of thing from happening. So the “hosts” had to be sneaky.
It just looks to me like someone had something to prove and they found a way to make it happen. Still doesn’t sound very honorable to me.
14 Q // Oct 15, 2006 at 3:34 pm
Actually, are any of the hosts well known MA guys here? I’m kind of curious as to the makeup of the group myself.
15 Orz // Oct 16, 2006 at 2:15 pm
That is no fact but fiction.
gangsters? nonsense!That’s a great rumour i’ve heard.
Be candid and tell it as it is.
That place was “zuoying shaolin wuguan” in Kaohsiung.(Not “Taizhong”)
Those people (the gangsters) are CMA masters: Fu Shuyun(88 years old), Zho Fulin (Taiji & BaGua grandmaster) … Fu attended The 1936 Berlin Olympics and performed “Kunwu Jian” in front of Adolf Hitler. Gangster? Probably he was a Nazi as well.
That was a fair game. There is no doubt about it.
And “Chen Xiao-wang only comes to Taiwan for a day or two a year.” It’s not true. Chen’s seminar in Taiwan would be 3 or 4 day. Last year he stayed one more day in Wenhua-Daxue for the free workshop.
If you want to know the truth, you could just ask Liao Bai and others here by yourselves: http://www.54ya.com/bbs/forum_topics.asp?FID=14
I think people in this forum would be very gald to answer you any questions in English.
so the conclusion is your story is untrustable.And your friend, the student of CXW, if he’s not a liar, than he is a braggart.
16 chessman71 // Oct 16, 2006 at 5:45 pm
Orz,
For your information, I am telling it AS I HEARD IT.
As for it being “fair game” that’s going to depend on who you ask. I’m also not aware that this was in Kaoshiung, but I assumed it was in Taizhong.
As for who attended, I passed along what I was told. If this was “zuoying shaolin wuguan” and the people who you say attended were there, they it certainly doesn’t match what I heard.
As for how often Chen comes to Taiwan, I checked his travel schedule on his website. He doesn’t come to Taiwan often, nor does he stay long.
As for getting the truth from Liao, I’ll leave that for others. I’m quite sure he has his side of the story, as the Taiwan boards show. This is what I heard was Chen’s version.
So there it is.
17 Orz // Oct 17, 2006 at 5:34 pm
In this case, the title “The truth” about Chen Xiao Wang’s fight seems inappropriate (Although it is debatable). In fact, the “fight” was already set and fixed, CXW was informed and knew the challenge by Chen-Village elder “Chen Jingwu” before he came to Taiwan. And he was willing to take it. (That was another story.)
The day, CXW went to “Zuoying Shaolin Wuguan” with Zhao Fulin and Chen Jingwu. Zhao was the host and he invited several local CMA celebrities in Kaohsiung. Besides, owner of the remarkable CMA bookstore - Lionbooks(wuxue shuguan), Mr. Liu was also there. So, according to “the student of CXW”, who were the mafia members and gansters? Chen Jingwu? Zhao Fulin? or Mr. Liu?
Here is a photo of the day from Chenjiagou(Chen Village) website : http://www.chenjiagou.net/bbs/uploadImages/20056121127317558.jpg
Definitely, it is “Zuoying Shaolin Wuguan”: 3F., No.2-83, Zuoying Avenue, Zuoying District, Kaohsiung City 813, Taiwan. Tel:07-5823332 Taizhong? Impossible!
I found a fair discussion from one of the most famous taiji website in China for you if you could read Chinese: http://taiji.net.cn/bbs/dispbbs.asp?boardid=6&id=6777&star=1&page=1
Your scoop is incorrect, and I don’t know if “this student of CXW” lied purposely. Could you please tell him, do not spread this rumour around, even it’s a side of the story. His behavior seems ignorant and uncouth, and the untrue information will mislead others. Thanks!
18 Martial Development // Oct 18, 2006 at 1:38 pm
If that qualifes as a tie, then I am equal to CXW too!
19 Orz // Oct 18, 2006 at 5:56 pm
Hi Dave,
I don’t quite understand why you deleted my post without my permission? It is against netiquette.
Those incorrect informations on this thread might damage some good teachers’ reputation and mislead other people.
Can I have my post back? I think everybody has right to know the “truth”.
Best regards,
Orz
20 chessman71 // Oct 18, 2006 at 7:03 pm
Orz,
Relax. I didn’t delete your comment. You sent it to me for moderation. Remember? I’m still holding it pending your approval to post it. Didn’t you get my email? Not only am I going to allow it, I want to actually make it into a post of it’s own instead of a comment. Isn’t that better?
As you say, the other side deserves to have it’s say. That’s only fair.
So I’m just going to go ahead and post it. Okay?
21 Formosa Neijia - Exploring Taiwan’s Internal Martial Arts » The truth about Chen Xiao Wang’s fight, pt.2 // Oct 18, 2006 at 7:18 pm
[…] The truth about Chen Xiao Wang’s “fight” […]
22 Klaus // Oct 19, 2006 at 7:39 pm
Well, if someone first sets something like this up, then needs to be ENCOURAGED by CXW to attack him for real (he does so in the beginning), gets propelled back the first time for a few metres on the ONLY occasion CXW did anything in return, then calling that first “beating” him completely diminishes any amount of seriousness on behalf of that great Mr. Liao. A “fight” ? More so a little PH playing before a diner, we had the same on a wedding with a 55 years old Judo guy pushing everyone around. If you think that CXW was “fighting”, or “tried” something during that plain negating offense, you are a fool. Repeat, a fool. CMA is FULL of such preposterous fools squeaking around on fights and which mastah beat up which other mastah. Try to first get anything remotely resembling skill yourself, then talk about stuff like this. Someone who isn’t blind saw that CXW was doing NOTHING in reply, the only time he did something, Liao got propelled back from his own attack. I have no idea how good or worse CXW is when he really “fights”, but it would surely not look like this.
Was it a Mafia plot ? Probably not. Students allover the world seem to need to make up stuff like this all the time, “protecting” an image that isn’t true from the get go. Was it a fight ? Not at all, unless you call pushing around in casual clothes with no punches or anything offensive at all a “fight”. Did someone “win” ? Well.
23 chessman71 // Oct 20, 2006 at 7:35 am
Klaus,
Good comments. Seems that you also fall somewhere in the middle of this.
24 Formosa Neijia - Exploring Taiwan’s Martial Arts » Zhao Fu-lin doing the two-section staff // Jan 17, 2007 at 4:48 pm
[…] Notice anything interesting about the background? This is where CXW had his interesting encounter with Liao Bai. […]
25 When taiji masters get real // Apr 28, 2008 at 7:31 pm
[…] clip slays a whole lot of sacred cows. I think this is the most explosive clip since Chen Xiao-wang’s debacle with Liao […]
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