One thing that would help IMA-inclined fighters is to think of IMA material in terms of skill sets. This takes us a step beyond the usual breakdown of qigong, forms, etc.
Think of all the moves that you train in your particular branch on IMA. Then try to categorize them. I think you will see that most MA’s break down into striking skills, kicking skills, standup grappling skills, etc. Now, not all styles will have all of these skill sets. That’s why I’m not mapping out a general list of skill sets for all MA.
But just thinking in terms of skill sets can be very useful for your sparring/fighting.
Take taiji, for example, especially any of the long forms. What kind of techniques do you find in ALL taiji long forms? (Notice I say all, because they all have common elements.) At a BASIC level (an important caveat), you see striking, kicking, throwing, and qinna.
Wait a minute. Look at that list again. Notice anything familiar, anything commonly found in almost all MA? Yes, taiji techniques have the EXACT same skill sets that are found in most other MA.
Now I’m not saying that taiji techniques are exactly the same as techniques from other arts, nor am I implying that taiji techniques are done in the same way as techiniques from other styles.
But all taiji long forms that I can think of do all contain common elements of punching, kicking, throwing, and qinna.
But stop and think for a minute: when was the last time you ever saw a taiji guy that had developed taiji’s kicking skills to a high level? Have you ever seen that? I haven’t. Notice something else – most all those kicks are done TO THE HEAD. Most of them ARE NOT low kicks. Hmm….why is that? I looked at my version of Chen’s lao jia yi lu. I found five kicks at head level and two to the knee (excluding the drop to the ground kick). That’s a five to two ratio of high to low kicks. And yet, who trains taiji kicks to the head?
Perhaps more importantly, why don’t people train them when they are in all of our long forms? Are they just a waste of space in the form? Why are they there in the first place?
All taiji forms also have punching. Can you punch the taiji way? Can you do so and produce power? Do you practice such punching against pads and shields? If the answer is no, why not?
Looking at IMA’s in terms of skill sets is crucial because it starts showing you what to train if you want to get into fighting or bring your practice up to the level of sparring.
Now put the punching and kicking together and ask yourself a big question: if it’s possible to punch and kick in ways that are “taiji-ish” (and obviously it is since those moves are in the forms), then is it still taiji is someone chooses to focus on punching and kicking for a while?
I don’t see how the answer could possibly be “no.” But if the answer is then “yes” by default, then shouldn’t we accept a type of taiji kickboxing that could be useful as a beginning sparring practice?
9 responses so far ↓
1 Q // Sep 27, 2006 at 8:17 am
I’m not sure that high kick in forms translate to high kicks in actual applications. It could be like TKD where you train high and kick low in actual combat (traditional TKD). It’s a good idea to me to just practice the individual movements w/ full force and applications at the beginning. After being familiar w/ what jins are involved then you’d have an idea where to put your energy when you wave your hands around.
2 chessman71 // Sep 27, 2006 at 2:22 pm
Q,
Perhaps there’s an element of physical training that was incorporated into the forms. But is that it? Are the high kicks really never to de done at targets above the waist? Comparing taiji to other CMA would suggest otherwise IMO.
3 GrahamB // Sep 28, 2006 at 2:54 am
I think High kicks in Tai Chi forms are there simply to train your legs. In application it’s not required to do them that high.
In our long form there aren’t any kicks higher than chest height and the vast majority are groin height anyway.
4 chessman71 // Sep 28, 2006 at 12:36 pm
Graham,
In some of the other IMA that I do, the kicks are done to the head/throat. In other words, they ARE high kicks. They are high kicks in the forms and in the applications.
I see taiji kicks in the same light. If they were meant to be aimed low, then why are they high in the form? There are better ways to train your legs, if that’s the goal. Plus, constantly aiming kicks high isn’t very good practice if you hope to actually kick low.
5 GrahamB // Sep 28, 2006 at 3:34 pm
Hi
Nice blog by the way - particularly enjoy the posts on Jan Ma Dao.
Other IMA and Tai Chi aren’t actually related, except by association -which started in the early 1900s with Sun Lu Tang. By lineage (teacer/student relationship) there was *no* actual relationship in their origins before the 1900s, therefore, if other IMA have high kicks, that doesn’t mean that Tai Chi does.
The trend to lump all IMA together as the same thing under one banner is a modern idea, and also one that I’m not particularly fond of.
Like I said there aren’t any high kicks in the Tai Chi forms I know - and to be honest, if you look at forms coming from Yang Lu Chan (Wu, Yang, Sun, Hao), the only high kicks you find are put in by WuShu athletes.
The kicks in the Tai Chi form are low, and are aimed low.
Some performers of Chen forms do have high kicks - although how many of those were there in the time of Yang Lu Chan, and how many were added to ‘keep up with the Joneses’ who knows?
To change subject:
Which IMA are you studying that have kicks to the throat neck? And in particular, which forms/links have these?
6 chessman71 // Sep 29, 2006 at 5:41 am
Graham,
Glad you’re enjoying the blog. I hope you stick around. I always enjoy discussing posts.
My point in comparing the arts is that when other IMA that I know of kick high, then the application is high as well. The bagua kicking set from Gao style is mostly aimed at mid to low level but there are some high kicks to the head/throat. But as would be expected, the low kicks are meant for low targets and the high kicks for high targets. The high kicks aren’t meant as some sort of training tool.
As for taiji and other IMA not being related, I’m not sure about that. I’ve often wondered about Chen style’s possible relation to xingyi, in particular. And I think that all of them may have been influenced by chuo jiao to some extent. I just don’t see the taiji developing in a MA vacuum.
Also, many of the traditional taiji forms that we have here in Taiwan have at least a couple of high front kicks. But Taiwan IMA isn’t very influenced by mainland wushu.
Finally, from what I know, the idea that kicks should be practiced high but then done low in application is from tae kwon do. The CMA that I’ve done is fairly good about having low, mid, and high level kicks and the applications match the level in the forms.
Does your experience suggest otherwise?
7 GrahamB // Sep 29, 2006 at 1:53 pm
Yes, my experience does sugest otherwise!
If you look at something like Yang Cheng-Fu Tai Chi Chuan (which has had the most influence on the world) you’ll see very big, low, extended postures used for almost everything - far too big to fight with sensibly.
Following your logic, (that things have to be done exactly like the forms all the time) are you suggesting that Yang Cheng-Fu was recommending that people actually fight with really long extended postures?
What about all the really low postures in Chen style?
It’s simply not the case - these are simply training methods. It’s the same with kicks - if you’re going to train a form quite a few times every day then you might as well make the body work a bit harder- low stances, high kicks, etc…
“But Taiwan IMA isn’t very influenced by mainland wushu.”
Yes, correct! Although, while the real development of Wu Shu began in the 1950s, the roots of the movement to simplify (for teaching the genreal populance) Chinese martial arts that became Wu Shu we see today (which is actually quite ‘complicated’, but not very martial) go back to a time before the Guomingdang upped sticks and were forced to move to Formosa.
The arts that were transplanted in Formosa had already undergone a slight modernistaion at the National Koushu Institute established in Nanjing in 1928. These are where a lot of the ‘traditional’ forms of Taiwan come from.
Of course, what was being taught in China under the banner of Koushu (’National arts’) by the Republicans was still martial in nature, unlike it’s succcessor, ‘Wu Shu’.
8 chessman71 // Sep 30, 2006 at 6:58 am
Graham,
You make some good points. I agree about the stances and height at which the forms are done.
“Following your logic, (that things have to be done exactly like the forms all the time)…”
But that wasn’t really my point. I was talking specifically about the kicks in this instance. I don’t see that SOME of the kicks are done higher to make the body work harder. If that were the goal, why not do all of the kicks higher?
The applications that I’ve been shown for the high kicks are done to higher targets.
I guess we just do things differently in the branches of taiji that I’ve studied.
9 GrahamB // Sep 30, 2006 at 3:01 pm
Hmm…Perhaps it’s because different types of kicks are better trained in different ways.
My long form contains 3 main, overt, types of kick (if you ignore all the steps that could be kicks as well): thrusting kicks, snapping kicks and one crescent kicks (the famous Lotus kick).
It appears to me that there’s zero point in ever doing a ’snap’ kick high, and in the form they are all done low at the groin.
The other two can work at a range of heights, and in the form they go up to chest level.
However, we’re getting into form specifics now, and it all depends how things are done in your form and the branches of taiji you’ve studied.
Anyway, good topic.
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