This continues the discussion about large vs. small frame Yang taiji.
Wujimon brought up an interesting article in this post that I would like to comment on. The article is called A Comparative study between Traditional Yang Style of Yang Chengfu and Cheng Man Ching’s Style by Justin Meehan. This was a really informative article IMO and even though the author sought to defend Cheng Man-ching (CMC), I thought that he almost totally failed. Kind of ironic, but a great article nonetheless. So I want to talk about some aspects of Yang Zhen-duo’s (YZD) large frame as compared to Cheng Man-ching’s smaller frame form because I think it adds to the current discussion about large vs. small Yang frames. I suggest reading the whole thing, but here are some relevant quotes:
Regarding song (relaxation):
In fact, Yang Zhenduo went to great lengths to diferentiate between the types of movement exemplified in the Cheng Manching and his father’s style; and he made it clear that wanted to highlight essential requirements of his father’s style. These stylistic differences can be summarized by the difference in interpretation over the Chinese word “sung.” To the Cheng Manching stylists this word has always contained the ideas of being sunken, relaxed and empty. Yang Zhenduo, however, emphasized the characteristics of being open, extended and full.
Peng (wardoff energy):
As a result, in its front stance attacks, the Yang style appears to be relying upon the biomechanical structure of the body to maximize the potential of carrying upward through an aligned body the force of pushing off the ground and conveying that force directly to the point of contact.
By comparison, the Cheng style appears to be consciously striving in its form postures to maintain a relaxed neutrality in all its postures to be in position to change passively from a yang to yin position to neutralize. I believe the Yang postures emphasize its peng or supportive positioning in each posture and in all major body parts involved in the posture. Also, that the Cheng style loosens rather than extends its postures to be more sensitive to the slightest variance or change in an opponent’s response, emphasizing neutralization over peng strength.
According to Yang Zhenduo, the eight energies (known to many as ward off, roll back, press (squeeze), push, pull down (pluck), split or separate, elbow and shouldering, and the five directions (forward, backward, turning right, turning left, and maintaining the center) are incorporated in every movement of the form, at least potentially. This cannot be possible without both peng and central stability. Perhaps we can say that the peng aspect is expressed more clearly in the Yang style and hidden in the Cheng style.
Yang Zhenduo continually tested the proper formation and final position of the form practitioner’s posture by providing resistance to the formation of posture and pushing against the practitioner’s hand positions in the completion of the final posture. For example, in the push posture, Yang would push back against the practitioner’s extended palms to see whether the practitioner had his body properly aligned. It appears that a Cheng stylist would be more interested in his body’s turning from or neutralizing such resistance, using only four ounces of force, rather than creating impenetrable peng resistance.
Spirit and martial intent:
Yang Zhenduo exhibits a much more outward martial appearance while Cheng Manching’s later appearance is much more inward directed and tranquil. This appearance goes beyond knowing that many of the photos and films of Cheng Manching were taken later in his life as he grew older. It also goes beyond the physical body types of the leaner Cheng Manching in comparison to the more stocky and robust appearances of Yang Zhenduo and his father.
As previously mentioned, the hallmarks of the standard Yang style are openness, expansiveness and roundedness.
There also is a great emphasis by the Yang family on Spirit not in the sense of spirituality as we have come to think of it in tai chi chuan, but more in the sense of vitality and martial spirit. Yang Zhenduo, quoting from the Classics, emphasized that the mind of the tai chi chuan practitioner should be on the spirit and not the “chi.” He said the spirit of the form should be observable in the manner in which the postures were presented (i.e. presentation) and especially in the eyes of the performer, which should be open and manifesting the spirit of the martial performance. He added that the eyes should resemble a cat about to pounce on a rat or a falcon poised before seizing its prey.
Stances and weight distribution:
By way of specific examples, the Yang style front stance purposefully straightens the rear leg in opposition to the force used in the bent forward leg, which pushes back against the forward thrust of the rear leg.
In the Cheng style, the rear leg is bent so that the knee of the rear leg hangs in a direct line below that leg side’s shoulder. Furthermore’, the Cheng style does not allow a dynamic tension to exist between the forward and rear leg. As a result, the Yang stance is much longer than the Cheng stance. Also, the Yang style advocates a forward incline of the upper body in the front stance. In the Cheng style the upper body is maintained in a straight up-and-down position, perpendicular to the floor.
In terms of the rear or back stance the Yang style allows 30 percent of the weight to remain on the front foot. The Cheng style advocates the emptying of the weight or the forward leg and the complete transfer of all weight to the rear foot. The Yang rationale is contained in the yin/ yang (double fishes) diagram. Seventy percent of the weight on one leg represents yang within, which also has an element of yin, while 30 percent weight on the other foot represents yin with an element of yang. As with the front stance, the Yang style advocates a dynamic counter-tension between the two legs, while the Cheng style does not. In both styles the upper body is straight up and down, not inclined, over the rear base leg.
Arms and lengthening:
Similar differences exist in the arm formations. The Yang arm is opened out and extended with the appearance of being straightened but not straight, while the Cheng style arms maintain” more of a 90-degree angle at the elbow. In both styles the shoulder is sunk, not raised, and the elbow points down. In such forward arm movements as the press, push or punch, the Yang style extension allows the hands to go beyond the forward foot, while the Cheng style hands flow no further than the forward foot. The Cheng style palm formation, called the “beautiful lady’s hand,” is a relaxed palm with no bend at the wrist. The Yang hand formation is somewhat between a palm formation ‘and a “willow leaf” palm edge formation, with wrist pronated. (i.e. sink or “sit” the wrist).
This article brings up so many of the things that I don’t like about CMC style and small frames, in general.
First of all, the small structure prevents the development of power. Look at the stances and arm movements as YZD describes them in Yang style. Having a wider base means that the practicioner has a bigger base of power: he has a wider, longer range of motion. If you can manipulate your power in an 18-inch space and I can manipulate my power in a three foot space, then who will be more powerful? I think the answer is clear.
Having a wider base forces the practicioner to deal with weight shifting between the lead and rear feet. This allows the power to be brought up through the legs as the weight shifts. I know CMC people talk about double weighting in large Yang frame guys, but not practicing a large frame prevents people from being able to differentiate the different power levels that exist between the two legs. For example, having 60% of your weight in the front leg allows for certain types of movement and power. Having 30% in the front leg allows for a different quality and type of power in certain movements that is almost totally different from having 60% in the front leg. If people don’t practice large frame, then they never learn to manipulate the weight shift and how it can enhance and affect power. That’s a huge problem.
Concerns over being double-weighted are overblown IMO. Knowing where the weight is (a crucial element of large frame training) will reduce that tendency.
Same with the arms. If I can only manipulate my power within a two-foot framework as far as handwork goes, and you can manipulate your power over a three-foot or more range, then you will have a tremendous advantage. Learning to extend power to the limits of your range of motion is vital. I can’t stress this enough. If I have power over a long range and you don’t, then I can defeat you without you ever getting near me. Working with a long range of motion is often what builds power in the upper body assuming you have the next requiement — peng.
This isn’t a knock against all small frame forms. Some have peng. But the CMC form seems not to. That’s a fatal flaw and would prevent me from suggesting that anyone learn this form (as I did, it was my first style). I’ll write more on peng later, but IMO if you don’t have peng in all your moves, then you don’t have taiji, period. It’s that important.
The main problem I have with small frame forms is that they prevent power development if they are practiced first. Lots of CMC people and others that only practice small frame forms have problems with this.
On the other hand, small frame’s like CMC’s form do teach a crucial aspect of taiji fighting: the ability to shift 100% of the weight into one leg. The problem with large frame Yang stylists and Chen style, in paricular, is the tendency to take a large, wide stance and make all the moves work from there. That’s great if you’re always taller and heavier than your opponent. If you’re not, then you’re at a serious disadvantage.
Shifting the weight 100% between the legs is a natural development of the large frame training. Once someone can clearly differentiate between 60-40 and 70-30 stances, then they should continue to work the percentages: 80-20, 90-10, 100-0. But I almost never see that in large frame Yang stylists and Chen stylists.
This causes two problems. First, power development gets retarded. Putting 100% of your weight in the forward or back leg allows you to go to the extremes of your range of motion. Small frame people don’t explore the gradations of power between their feet and large frame people don’t fully explore the limits of their power at the ends. Of course, that second part also applies somewhat to small frame forms because of the short stances.
Second, footwork gets neglected. Again, most Chen stylists and large Yang people take large, rooted stances to work their material. Great, that is a necessary step. But what about us short people? That will never completely work for us.
There are two types of applications: you stay put and move the opponent around you, or the opponent stays put and you move around him. Large frame trains the first type of application and small frame trains the second. You need both in other to be well-rounded. But without 100% weight-shifting, you will never train the second type of application and power.
So those are some of the problems I see with both large and small frame Yang styles, with a little criticism of my beloved Chen style thrown in for free. 
I would love to hear what others think.
24 responses so far ↓
1 Formosa Neijia - Exploring Taiwan’s Internal Martial Arts » On criticism and video clips // Nov 16, 2006 at 7:30 pm
[...] Take the Yang Jun clip, for example. Yang is a well-known taiji guy and I doubt he was hurt in anyway by our discussion of his taiji. By looking at his clip and discussing it, we touched on the importance of the kua, leaning in forms, etc. BTW, I gave a pretty positive assessment of his father’s work here. So I think I’m being fairly balanced. [...]
2 Jake // May 31, 2008 at 2:12 pm
This issue is one of the most important and confounding differences in Yang stylists to date. And would seem to have no easy answer. Some fall on one side or the other of the argument.
It is interesting to note that Fu Zhong Wen also favors maintaining an erect stance at all times but practiced a more extended and open frame compared to that of Zhen Man Qing. Also Wu stylists of the Wu Jian Quan descent like Ma Yue Liang etc also lean forward but have a more compact frame and seem to outwardly favor neutralization and softness over power and extension.
In the end it is difficult to accept seemingly essential differences in practice but we must see that differences in height, speed, lean etc are only a reflection of men. Attainment of the principles is essential. Ultimately they are all training mindfulness and awareness. Extension and frame are just a means of doing this. If internally we sink are energy and the spirit rises eventually both extending the spine forward and keeping it vertical allow for this.
One thing is interesting to note. Zheng Man Qing’s frame is vertical and compact but actually given his body and his rather short arms, the buoyancy in his armpits and extension seem apt for a man of his stature. Sometimes some of his larger students have an overly collapsed demeanor and posture that for me seems out of place with there bodies and limb length and size. Perhaps mistaking collapse for relaxation. Also there is still footage of him demonstrating his peng energy. Literally not moving but neutralizing several men pushing against his forearm.
Also I think it is a mistake to think of peng as power. It might seem like that. Peng is more essentially listening “Ting Jing”. The extended peng which withstands force and bounces it back may also seem like power but is actually just “Jie Jing”. ie the most efficient cycle of neutralization and issue. The moment when these energies become one new energy if you like. Hence the fact peng is existent in all the 8 energies. Here I would have to agree with ZMQ (CMQ) when he said there is according to his teacher (Yang Chen Fu) and him only “Jie Jing”
Finally, the desire to have a standard unchanging form is misleading. From Yang Lu Chan through to Yang Jian Quan, Yang Chen Fu there were many variations is form. I suspect this was considered a natural part of Tai Ji Quan. It is only in the 20th C that standardization has eroded this. Of course there has to be differentiation between inaccuracy and laziness as opposed to genuine differences based on personality, body and reflection of the principles.
I think we can find comfort in this variety of exposition. In fact it would be disconcerting if everybody practiced the same exact frame. It is odd that almost all of the most notable 20th C practitioners all had distinctly individual ways of practicing the forms they were taught.
3 Hermann // May 31, 2008 at 6:30 pm
Most, what should have been said on this topic, has been said, by Wujimon, Dave and Jake.
Still, knowing 4 of ZMQs indoors personally and having seen Yang Zhenduo here in southern Taiwan and in Shanghai, I only can say that the hunchbacks have superior phs skills, fixed and moving (not to talk of real fighting, which both sides might lack).
Yang Zhenduo didn’t allow to be touched the last time over here, as he and his students did not win a single match in the 3 or 4 meetings, I was watching from the mid 90s to early 2000s.
But, of course phs is only a phase, much too much emphacised here in Taiwan, forgetting the real application training (too painful, anyway!)
4 BL // Jun 1, 2008 at 7:56 am
(First of all, the small structure prevents the development of power)
Its only a problem if what you do is based on power. If its not then there is no problem. The others power is more then enough to use.
5 BL // Jun 1, 2008 at 7:59 am
(not to talk of real fighting, which both sides might lack).
Can you explain what this comment means? Are you saying that its better to be able to fight, and not have taiji skills?
what is real fighting?
6 wayne hansen // Jun 2, 2008 at 5:45 am
(First of all, the small structure prevents the development of power)
this puts hsing i,pa kua,sun ,wu and hao in real trouble.
when we talk of cheng we must remember it was taught to different people at different ways at differing times.
if you want some fun go to malaysia and tell them they have no power and cant fight.
7 kenneth fish // Jun 2, 2008 at 7:29 am
Having first hand experience with both versions (Yang via Xiong Yang he and others when I was in Taiwan, Zheng at Shih Zhong in NYC) , as well as Hao (via Yao Peijing) I believe that Yang Zhenduo’s explanations of the terms is far more in line with the greater body of highly skilled Taiji practitioners , as well as the terms as understood in other Chinese martial arts. I always had a question about the way things like song and kai/he were explained and demonstrated in the ZMQ line - yes it is possible that one teacher can be completely at variance with every other teacher and be correct - but in this case I don’t think so. The energy of song, for example, as described by YZD is consistent with Northern Shaolin, Xingyi, Tongbei, and Bagua, as well as Hao taiji and Cotton Boxing - this kind of song develops a springy sensitivity - whereas I believe the ZMQ version actually dulls sensitivity and reactivity. (of course one could retort “but ZMQ was light and reactive” - perhaps, but what was it that he learned, as opposed to what he taught?)
As for what is real fighting - it sure as heck isn’t pushing hands.
8 Yuri Snisarenko // Jun 2, 2008 at 12:21 pm
With all my respect to Zheng Manqing, I still believe his skill was somewhat lower than Yang Chengfu’s. His method of power generation was deferent. You may often hear from Fu family admonition “seat the wrist” (zuo wan). As I see it, Zheng removed that in his later form and introduce “beautiful lady’s hand”. So I believe he used something deferent than YCF’s method of power generation. What it is I don’t know.
In Fu family we still were taught the old way – relatively narrow gongbu stance with some lean and extending of the back waist area. When FQQ do that he looks exactly as YCF’s old photos.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_cb00XMTU0MjA4OTY=.html
9 Hermann // Jun 2, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Kenneth and Yuri,
both of you may be right, I also learned other approaches to the mentioned terms and their actual realisations, in my Wang Zihe Yang-style group and other IMAs, where sparring was not totally missing, practiced more or a bit less serious.
Still, one strange fact remains: Why the hack are those ZMQ phs experts much better in this simlified phs-frame of exchange? Why was Yang Zhenduo so very unimpressive, when I saw him over there and here? Why was he pushed around (subtle but obvious by serveral Taiwan 3rd generation guys?) Why didn’t he want to get touched on his return vistit? Why do I miss real fighting skills in both camps? And why is Tabby Cat praising Ben Luo Bangzhen (is he fine again after his transplant?), after having been exposed to Japanese and Chinese stuff so widly? Is there a connection between the simplified method of ZMQ and the simplified frame of phs?
And of course, “as for what is real fighting - it sure as heck isn’t pushing. “
10 Yuri Snisarenko // Jun 2, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Hermann,
I see you point and agree regarding push hands skill from Zheng’s camp you mentioned. I try to use some similar strategies in push hands myself. But what I learned from FQQ is that PH differs from fighting. Mr. Fish mentioned that also. FQQ considers PH more like specific drills designed to develop definite jins (rather than competitive bustle). However in fighting, he says, it’s just one hit and it’s over. If one ever been slightly hit by him he/she will understand, for instance, why Professor Zheng couldn’t move for some time lying on a ground after YCF applied fajin to him once.
11 Hermann // Jun 2, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Totally agreed, Yuri, that is the reason, why I don’t compete anymore in phs format, and I can see more and more, why ZMQ was beaten strong by Wang Zihe here in Taiwan.
Still, up to the phs level, there are some really good ZMQ guys, and not too many from other styles get much further, right?
12 Why are ZMQ’s people better at push hands? // Jun 2, 2008 at 5:34 pm
[...] Comments Hermann on Yang Zhen Duo vs. Cheng Man Qing and large vs. small frameBarbara on Are the IMAs a right brain activity?Denny on Wang Fu-lai on Chen Pan-lingYuri Snisarenko [...]
13 neijia // Jun 2, 2008 at 9:33 pm
Hermann, what kind of transplant did Ben get?
14 wayne hansen // Jun 3, 2008 at 7:42 am
discssing the level of skill from one generation to the next is useless.
even if cheng could have bested yang he would not have done so ,especially in public.
one thing in martial arts people discuss things they did not see as though they were fact.
how do you know cheng was beaten by wang,were u there.
pushing is not fighting,but cheng followers like chock seng kam and lou tong bao were famous in malaysia for taking on all comers hard and soft stylists,silat and any style that challenged.
i divide cheng into 3 main branches taiwan,ny[usa] and malay each different with their own history.
look at the films of mario napoli taking on the best the chen have to offer on their own turf at their rules and beating them soundly.
this is more like wrestling than tai chi and mario comes thru stan isreils jui jitsu linage but it is still cheng linage.
15 kenneth fish // Jun 3, 2008 at 7:58 am
Wayne:
I think it is worth noting that Huang Xingxian in Malaysia was a White Crane boxer of considerable skill before becoming a Taiji adept.
16 Hermann // Jun 3, 2008 at 1:29 pm
As far as I know it was the liver, saw him here in Taiwan shortlz afterwards, a bit shaken, though. Hopefully, my infos are correct, but no garanties!
As for Wang and Zheng, I heard the storry from both camps, once from my Wang Zihe teacher and then through a ZMQ line. Of course, the reasons for and the actual exchange have different colourations, but that has to be expected.
And Mario, would he have won without his jiu jitsu? Could he fight some striking guy from Xingyi or else? Even a real shuaijiao guy would be hard to cope with the way he did in Chenjiagou!
17 wayne hansen // Jun 3, 2008 at 4:14 pm
huang left penang and moved to sarawak after a confrontation with chock.
huang asked yap sui ting to take over at the penang chin wu.
chock went back to try yap 4 times each time the6′4 chock was rendered unconcious by the 5,4 yap,he bowed to yap and became his no1.
i know huang was a fukien crane stylist of great renown,but didnt he bow to cheng after being bested by tt liang.
since the days of bruce lee it has been impossible to find any stylist uncontaminated by other arts.
that is the point i make good practicioners are all over the place you just have to look a little harder.
18 Hermann // Jun 4, 2008 at 3:52 pm
A pitty, I never saw him in his prime, but heard so much about it.
When he was visiting my Master (Song Zhijian) in Taibei twice (end 80s and early 90s), he was old, weak and his demo in phs was really embarrasing.
19 Hermann // Jun 4, 2008 at 3:52 pm
That should be Huang Xingxian, sorry.
20 SteveG // Jun 5, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Consider the fact that what we think of as Yang Chen Fu’s style is based on the public photo’s of his large frame form and applications. Do we really know what he taught Cheng in private? This was a time of war and turmoil, I seriously doubt that a renowned fighter of YCF’s status was simply giving away and demonstrating the “real stuff” in public…these were very different times… I heard first hand from a very advanced CMC student who went on to study with other great teachers. He travelled to Hong Kong to study with YCF’s oldest son Yang Shou Zhong and says that form, push hands and applications, looked just like CMC!
21 neijia // Jun 5, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Oh boy, I hope Ben is ok. I guess there is no magic health effect, although off-topic, aging is becoming a hot field of study.
22 Christian // Jul 22, 2008 at 5:30 am
Tai Chi theory indicates that small movement is better than large movement and no movement is better than small movement. It is therefore true that internal or mental movements which are not seen are better than external or physical movement which one can see. The practicality of this in pushing or any fighting should be obvious. Cai Song Fang (who I personally observed) and Wang Xianzhai are some of many practitioners who have reached the no movement level to the extent they could immediately repulse all attacks from any fighting style without apparent external effort. Classical Tai Chi was taught in levels. First emphasizing large movements (such as Yang 108 or Chen forms). However, perfecting Tai Chi principles in these forms takes time. The next level would be a small frame (such as Chen small frame http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/xiaojia.html, Wu 108, or Yang small frame). If Cheng had progressed to small frame and taught it directly to his students then logically only some students would be able really jump into small frame in a practical martial manner having skipped large form prerequisites. Traditionally small frame was only taught to those students who had developed a proficiency in the large movement form. Styles such as Wing Chun based on moving almost directly into a small frame are only often not fully grasped by the novice. Nevertheless, the ultimate fighting level is internal.
23 wayne hansen // Jul 23, 2008 at 5:43 am
christian.
you are right not all of chengs students understood the process.
sometimes hidden teqnique is so well hidden it gets lost.
the 37/108 is a large circle form and should always be practiced as such leading to the small circle san shou forms.
24 Thomas To // Jul 24, 2008 at 10:40 am
“Christian // Jul 22, 2008 at 5:30 am
Tai Chi theory indicates that small movement is better than large movement and no movement is better than small movement. It is therefore true that internal or mental movements which are not seen are better than external or physical movement which one can see. ”
Personally I wouldn’t go into “mental movements”, as your ultimate aim is to physically displace your opponent or part thereof, so you need something that is physical.
The states of large or small movements are states of kinetic energy. The state of no movement while performing fajing is a state of potential energy, characterised by high internal pressure. By internal pressure, I am primarily referring to the air pressure in the lungs, which is also the pressure within the chest and abdomen. This “stillness of body” and high pressure happen at the instant of fajing. Starting from that instant, the potential energy becomes converted into kinetic energy - displacement of the body, yours (e.g. a punch) or his (e.g. a push).
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